Why is stabilisation work important in therapy? EMDR - PTSD

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

Coming up today, we are looking at trauma stabilisation. What is it? Why does it matter? And what sort of results can it achieve for the clients who go through it? What sort of results can it achieve for the clinicians delivering it? We are looking at getting research published and making a difference at the right time for the client. I hope you find this so useful.

(: 00:31

Welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. I feel like there's not much of an intro to make for today's episode actually, because I think we did a really wonderful job of handling it as kind of almost a standalone episode. I'm chatting with Aimee Shipp, who is a qualified clinical associate psychologist and we're talking about group programmes for stabilisation and I just found it a really wonderful, wonderful episode to record. And yeah, I hope you find it really useful. I will look forward to catching up with you on the other side of this. Enjoy. I just want to welcome along our guest for today, Aimee. Hi Aimee.

Aimee Shipp (: 01:22

Hi. Yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:23

Thank you for joining us. We connected on LinkedIn, which is the start of many a podcast episode that I say, but I really love the interesting things that are going on in the psychology world and it just sparks my interest for podcasts. So before we get thinking about what we're going to talk about today, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your kind of psychology history so far?

Aimee Shipp (: 01:52

Of course. So I'm quite a new role. I think many people are learning a lot about it now and I first started with psychology back in secondary school and just really took a shine to it, just found it really interesting in terms of just learning about why people did things the way that they do and how everything that we experience impacts us and took it further from there. Really studied psychology at A level studies psychology for my undergrad. And initially I had different thoughts as to where I wanted to go within that route. So I took a forensic psychology master's with the intention of going down the forensic route and had a bit of a change of heart following the clinical route. And that led me to the clinical associate in psychology role and the training course, which has been great.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:53

I see. Very nice. Thank you. Yeah, forensics, all my assistant work was forensic stuff, but I always knew I didn't want to be a forensic psychologist. Just that was the experience that I'd managed to get, but forensics is not for everybody. I wasn't really that keen to return to forensics after I qualified. I felt like I'd earned those stripes and was looking forward to non forensic work, but it is the real deal. There's a lot to process isn't there in forensic settings?

Aimee Shipp (: 03:27

Yeah, most definitely. And I think for me it was something I realised was an interest of mine, but perhaps not where I wanted to work clinically. So a good experience nonetheless.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:39

Yeah, and that's actually a really nice way of looking at it. You can take a look, but you don't necessarily need to make that your career. And that reminds me of when I was training doing my doctorate that you're, that's what placements are for. We're taking a look, we're trying on some different shoes here. We don't necessarily need to keep them. We can move forward and decide what kind of psychologist I want to be. And that found you working as a clinical associate psychologist. If people are interested in knowing more about the role and the training of clinical associate psychologist, we've had a very recent episode with Dr. Dawn Reeves who is working in Essex Partnership University Trust, looking at that role for adults. But we also had an episode a little bit earlier on with Elise Dyer looking at the training role for children and young people. So if that's okay, Aimee, we won't cover that too much because we've covered that a little bit already. But I'm really, really interested to think about your work in adult mental health and to think about how that's landed you with a publication and how you are hopefully setting the world of trauma informed care and service delivery. Alight, do you want to pick up that baton, run with that for a bit?

Aimee Shipp (: 04:58

Yeah, it's been really interesting. I worked as an assistant psychologist in my current service before doing the CAP training and the service itself came to light in the midst of the first pandemic lockdown. And we recognised, and this is probably something that a lot of people recognise across the country and not just in the area that I'm in this real kind of gap between primary and secondary care with lots of people falling through that gap and not the kind of service remit existing that can provide the things that those people need. And oftentimes that tends to be for people who are experiencing the after effects of complex trauma. So we had a real task in setting up the service, which was designed to essentially fill that gap between primary and secondary care. And it's kind of a transformational project that looked at reducing that siloed working that was existing between primary and secondary and also third sector organisations to help us work together more collaboratively.

(: 06:21

So we designed this service that now exists with the idea of capturing those people that fall in between. And we take a lot of learning from the neuros sequential model by Bruce Perry and the phased approach to trauma therapy that's kind of been advised by Herman and it's in a lot of our guidelines that exist now for managing and treating complex PTSD. So we developed this service that's essentially got layers to the service and is very formulation driven, very trauma informed. And as part of that kind of layered approach, we focus on that from that neuros sequential perspective. So the kind of lower end levels of our interventions or our support focuses on that kind of bottom up processing. And as you move higher, we start to approach those top-down processing methods. And sitting within that is an online complex trauma stabilisation group that we developed, which we've recently published some research about.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 07:41

Amazing. It's so important and it's just trying to make sure that we are mopping up any gaps really. And in case people are listening to this thinking, primary care, secondary care don't quite know what that is. So primary care is something like your GP that you can self refer to. It might be lower level interventions, secondary care is something that you ordinarily would need a referral to and you might get kind of higher level, perhaps more intensive intervention. Is that how you understand the definition, the separation between the two, Aimee, if I got that right?

Aimee Shipp (: 08:16

Yeah, absolutely. And I think with secondary care it tends to be where that kind of longer term support is needed as well. Sometimes multiple professionals to be involved as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:32

Lovely, thank you Aimee. So tell me about your research then.

Aimee Shipp (: 08:39

So for the past few years now, we have been offering this complex trauma stabilisation group that's run online currently. And the idea of it really is to sit in that first phase of that approach to trauma therapy essentially mostly focusing on things like safety and stabilisation in order to prepare people for moving forward in that pathway to potentially go on to reprocess traumatic experiences. And it is something that didn't really exist in this area. We have support services available for single incident PTSD, but what we noticed is there's a lot of people that were being missed because of experiences of complex trauma. So those ongoing repeated experiences of trauma that often start in childhood. And whilst the impact of that is in some ways similar to a single incident PTSD presentation, so your intrusive symptoms there is kind of that additional layer I suppose, which we refer to as disturbances and self-organization.

(: 10:04

So those things that impact like your ability to regulate your emotions, that kind of perception of yourself and your role as some people kind of see that. And also just those difficulties in terms of interacting with others and those kind of interpersonal relationships. So a lot of those people are being missed. So what we are doing with this group is essentially enabling those people to be able to receive the support that they need in terms of reprocessing those traumas and being able to live a better quality of life. Starting off with the trauma group, and it's a 12 week group that we run in an online format two hours weekly that of course there's breaks in that as well, but we essentially move through the group to provide a better understanding of why people experience these particular difficulties following complex trauma, how that kind of fits in terms of the way in which our brains work generally as human beings and how that's altered through the experience of trauma. And then providing people with strategies to essentially almost stabilise symptoms. So to better regulate emotions, to develop more compassionate ways of relating to themselves and to the difficulties that they experience.

(: 11:43

And predominantly the group itself is based on principles of CBT, but we also draw upon things like dialectical behaviour therapies, so DBT compassion focused therapy in order to provide that psychoeducation about trauma and those strategies. We've run many groups now. I think we're on about group number 21, which we first started this particular therapy group around three to four years ago now. And yeah, just being a pilot service, being a pilot group as well, it's really important to us to make sure it's doing what we want it to do and actually having a positive impact for people, but also exploring the service user experience of that as well because we have this knowledge and these ideas that we want to share with people to support them, but obviously the experience of receiving that needs to be helpful and compassionate and containing as well. So that's what we looked to do in this particular piece of research. We did a service evaluation of this particular group to look at the outcomes, any kind of clinical change, but also exploring people's experience of that group as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 13:10

Lovely. So important to measure what we're doing, isn't it? And we are doing that by doing outcome measures at the start, at the midpoint, at the end point. Some services will ask you to do after every session as well, but sometimes that must feel a bit like overkill. This really resonated with me because when I was working in the NHS, I realised that I was, for every new patient I was picking up doing complex trauma work, I was doing the same stuff, the same stabilisation programme, and I just thought this would be totally doable in a group. And so I put together a stabilisation group and for me, I knew that a lot of the clients that I was working with would've found it really difficult being with another gender. So we made it male or female. Now we now operate in a slightly different context.

(: 14:11

And so how I would do that now, I think we'd have to take some additional thoughts and consideration, but if it was their cameras were on or the gallery wasn't on, maybe it wouldn't really matter. I dunno, it's something to consider. I'll ask you about your experience with that in a minute as well. So I started this group and it worked really well and then the pandemic came along and so then we were doing some bits online as well, but actually also in my own business. Then I did a prerecord course, which I was calling the Feel Better Academy, which guides people through all of this stuff because whilst connection is important, it takes person hours, doesn't it, to deliver it. And actually some people want to just be able to get the skills but not actually necessarily aren't ready for the connection as yet. So how have you navigated the kind of gender? Because often the complex trauma presentation is, well, it's from childhood and it might be that it's arisen because of specific genders. So then this is for our audience being vulnerable and around people of that gender can feel really triggering for people. Understandably. How have you navigated that, Aimee?

Aimee Shipp (: 15:29

So our groups are mixed gender, but prior to anyone accessing that particular group, they will have a formulation or some kind of assessment where those kinds of things would be discussed. And often it is kind of a mixed bag really actually in terms of whether people feel comfortable with a group programme or not. And sometimes there is that uncertainty because often complex trauma stems from relations with other people and with that relational trauma, there's going to be anxiety around interacting in groups. There's going to be that fear of being triggered. We have a mixed gender group, but alongside those 12 group sessions, we provide three individual sessions that group members have prior to starting the group midway through and at the end and during those one-to-one sessions, there's the opportunity to discuss any anxieties or concerns and to also problem solve and think about how best to support individuals.

(: 16:42

Much of that is talking about I guess the kind of expectations for the group in terms of what they can expect from the group. So there's no expectational pressure for anyone to talk about their traumatic experiences with their purely for that first stabilisation part. So to take those strategies and to learn more, and we have a conversation about how to keep safe during the group and outside of the group sessions, what will we do if someone feels triggered, how will we manage that as a group? And there's a real emphasis in the group, particularly in the first couple of sessions about safety and connectedness. So how we can ensure that all of our group members feel safe in that space and feel comfortable. And also how we stay connected because we know that dissociation is a really common survival strategy and when triggered in the group, likelihood is that dissociation will become activated and then how do people cope and reconnect safely?

(: 17:50

That being said, we do also offer this particular group programme as a brief psychological intervention on A one-to-one. So if at the point of formulation there were real strong aversions to working with or being exposed to a person of another gender, we can consider actually is it more appropriate and more useful to this person to offer them this support on A one-to-one basis? So that's kind of how we've been tackling it thus far. We do when we're talking to people about joining this particular group therapy, talk to them about the pros of group therapy as well, because although a daunting experience and often people do feel anxious about that, there are lots of pros. Again, thinking about that nature of complex trauma and that relational trauma, of course being around other people, that threat system is going to become activated. And we talk to people about, with this being a therapy group, there's multiple therapists there to help contain that group space. Being surrounded by people with similar experiences who are also working towards similar goals can be really encouraging and really invalidating. And so also a group therapy being an opportunity to safely tackle those beliefs and anxieties about other people. But again, it's a real important ethos in our service to consider right thing, right order right time. So if a group therapy is not the right thing right now for someone, it may be that we offer them this programme on a one-to-one instead and support them moving forward.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:45

Oh, it sounds like such a responsive, compassionate service to work in. Just sounds really nice, sounds really nice. And I hope that you're getting wonderful subjective feedback as well as objective feedback because sometimes that's the stuff that really helps as a clinician, isn't it? When you're actually, when this was done and when you did this, it really made me feel this and this is how this has made a difference in my life. It's those golden moments, isn't it that just I think stay with you probably for the rest of your career that you can really reflect on.

Aimee Shipp (: 20:21

Most definitely. And whilst there isn't that expectation to talk about traumatic experiences people do in the group talk about, for example, this happened to me last week and I felt really triggered. And we will relate that to what we've learned in the group, how that makes sense based upon what we know about the way brains work and the way brains memories work during traumatic experiences. And I think often people find that to be really helpful, that validation of their experience and their difficulties and linking that in with what we're learning in the group. And I think having that space to connect with others is something people have found really valuable and shared with us too. And even some of the concepts, we talk quite a lot about the window of tolerance, so that way of helping to gauge your emotions and your levels of arousals based upon kind of different things that happen and how we can cope with that.

(: 21:25

And I think that's been a real learning point for people and a really helpful experience. So there's always opportunity within the group sessions to share that experience and to share how you are finding the group. And again, in those one-to-one sessions, we always provide that opportunity to reflect upon what is helpful in the group, what's been unhelpful or challenging, how do we problem solve that? How do we help you? But also recognising that with that therapist to service user relationship. For some it might not always be easy to highlight or bring up or speak about things that have been difficult or things that haven't been the most positive experience. So we also do give all of our group members a feedback form like link that they can complete and they can just say what they want to about that group experience and it's all anonymous, so we'll not know who it's come from. And that's been really, really helpful as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 22:30

Lovely. And I think it's just utter magic when your group members are hearing bits from people's lives over the week and then one of them might say, oh, I wonder if actually this is that thing that we were talking about the other week and could it be this and might this have been useful? And they start to really apply the theory to the practise or someone will say, actually in the moment I recognise that this was this and I did this, or I used to love it when people would come in and they would be, you'd see, oh, you get it, you're using these skills. They might be sharing an office with somebody. And they'd be like, well, I just looked at them as they were telling a story and I just realised how unregulated they were. And I just said, take a breath, drop your shoulders. And then you're like, oh. And then once you begin to be able to see how unregulated, once you begin to see what regulation looks like in you, you begin to see how unregulated other people are. And once you begin to see that you can then begin to shape the world and you are a more compassionate, better human and you are just more stable and you have a different impact on the world, I think. Have you experienced any of that?

Aimee Shipp (: 23:58

Absolutely. I think even as a practitioner like delivering the group programme, you learn so much as you are supporting people too. And it's absolutely the case. Once you are able to better regulate, you start to notice that dysregulation in others and how you can support them. And that's even been feedback that we've had from people completing the group. One of the biggest things that some people have taken away with them is that self-awareness and that ability to recognise where they're at emotionally and reconnect with what their body's trying to tell them in terms of the things that they need. And that's been really helpful for them, not only in helping to regulate themselves, but some of our group members have spoken to me about how that's then helped them to recognise that dysregulation in their children or in other people around them and then support them to notice what's going on, to take that step back, like you say, that breath drop the shoulders. So it's been a really positive experience.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:08

Yeah, I love it. Sometimes my kids, especially my youngest, will say to me, mommy, it's alright. Let's come and have a cuddle, have a sit down. We'll just sit on the sofa and it's, oh, you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay kid. You are attuned and you're not making me feel awful for being a little bit shouty or have you had a tricky day, mummy, what's going on? He actually, he doesn't call me mommy publicly anymore. So to save his embarrassment, I will say in public, he calls me mum behind closed doors, he does still call me mummy and I love it. But yeah, the window of tolerance is just so, so useful and I think about it all the time and it's what I call the roadmap for all of the work that I do with my clients. But another of my favourites is this idea of, I dunno if you've kind of got this concept in your group, but a bicycle wheel and we might just notice things that arise on the rim and we can choose where to show to pay our attention.

(: 26:17

And then there's part of that, there's a really nice kind of guided imagery exercise where you imagine yourself sitting at the bottom of an ocean, you can breathe, you're not struggling a breath or anything, it's supposed to be tranquil and you just are looking up towards the surface and you might be able to see the sort of choppy waves, you might be able to see the sun coming down, but you are not in the thick of that. And so it's that ability to just slightly absent yourself to be able to think about what is whipping you up into a frenzy and whether that actually is deserving of your time and attention right now and just slowing everything down. I really love that. Have you got a favourite kind of strategy or thing from your group that actually you just love doing or that you use for yourself?

Aimee Shipp (: 27:05

That is a very good question. I think it really depends to be honest what you need in the moment. And that's something that we talk to people in the group about all of the time. There's lots of different ways that we can help ourselves to regulate and you'll need different things at different times based upon where you are on that bicycle wheel or where you are in that window of tolerance. I think for me, one of my personal favourites is just using your senses to soothe you and reground you. Because I think when we think about complex trauma and just generally day to day like life stresses that we experience, that information comes in through our senses essentially and travels up through the nervous system up to the brain and sends that particular message. And I just find it really interesting how we can use that same process to reground and reregulate ourselves.

(: 28:09

And I think when we think back to being a child or when we think about children around us, a lot of the time the things that they need or want for self-regulation relates to senses like children come to adults or parents around us for a hug, that's a tactile touch response or sense. And I find that that really interesting. I think especially when you're an adult, it can sometimes be more difficult to know what do I do when I was a kid, I would want a hug, but I can't always get a hug. And I think the senses are just a lovely way of bringing that in. And I often think sharing that kind of sensory understanding and that neurobiological understanding behind the skill is something that people really find almost like a light bulb moment. I think a lot of people when you suggest it to them at first they're like, well, how is listening to the sounds of brain and lighting a candle going to soothe me? But when you explain that and the importance of engaging all of those sensors at once, it seems to click so much and it's just one that I personally find to be the most soothing for me as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:27

Thank you for running with that question that I threw at you. You did a beautiful job of it. I've got a candle burning right now. For me, it feels like a little bit of me indulgence time and I just love everything you said. Basically. I'm such a mammal. I'm five foot six and my husband is six foot two I'm going to say, and I just still love a cuddle standup cuddles the best. Does that sound really dodgy? Just I like cuddles and sometimes I'll say I think I need a hug and if my little one's upset, he still likes to scooch up and have a koala hug, I can still just about manage to hold him like that. And I just love it. And as a mum, I'm the sort of person that will scooch down to the floor and shuffle him onto my knee and then just sort of sit there as we have a chat.

(: 30:24

And I still do that with my big one as well. At bedtime I get him to sit on my knee or sit on the stairs with me to hear about their day. I'm just a mammal. And at nighttime, I don't mind sharing with you all that at nighttime as we're watching tv, my husband fussies my hair. For me, I love a bit of stroking. I love a bit of just a little bit of, yeah, I'm just a mammal. I'd be the sort of monkey that would sit being groomed or grooming others in a row. And even at primary school we used to do that. We used to sit in a row doing each other's hair and stroking each other's backs and stuff. Not everyone is into sensory stuff, but actually what we know about living in groups is that it's supposed to feel good, but for some reasons stuff that's happened in our past, it can feel triggering concept.

Aimee Shipp (: 31:08

Absolutely. And that again is why it's so important in the group for us to give people a range of different skills that they use because some people will not be drawn to self-soothing with the senses. And not only that, but I guess also highlighting the importance in the group of using the skills in a way that works for you and a way that feels manageable for you. And sometimes it might be that there are certain parts of self-soothing with the senses, for example, that people really enjoy, but it might be the touch aspect that they don't enjoy. And knowing it's okay to not engage that sense and just roll with the ones that work for you. Similarly, some of the other skills, again, people will find them really interesting and be really drawn to them, and for others it will feel really triggering. One of the other skills that we go over is imagining that calm place.

(: 32:10

And for some that's really, really soothing, but for others the idea of that in itself can be triggering because there is no place that they felt calm or safe before. And yeah, I think that's just really important to acknowledge. And something that we kind of preface with the group sessions as well, because there are a lot of different skills that we go over. We go through distress tolerance and emotion regulation skills from DBT, we go through skills from CFT as well. So things like the soothing rhythm, breathing, developing that compassionate self, and each of those will land differently with different people. And that's okay. It's about developing the toolkit that works for you and what might work really well for us where we've just talked about that sensory aspect for some that will just feel completely overwhelming and overstimulating and not the thing that they need. So yeah, just about individualising things.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 33:11

Absolutely. When I used to run the group in person, I used to take a white company cais spray with me and I'd sort of spray the room so that we are kind of starting to establish a safe, comforting, calming scent. Unfortunately they don't make that scent anymore, but it was still something I used to say with online work you can kind of spray the room like something that can be something new so that you begin to associate that with something calm, stable, secure, and Okay, thank you. That's been really interesting to hear more about your programme. In terms of how you get it published, does this class's audit where you don't need ethics, do you need to go through the ethical hoops? How has that worked out for you?

Aimee Shipp (: 34:02

So a colleague of mine led on this particular piece of research actually as part of her training for the doctorate in clinical psychology. So it was something that I supported her with. So I will give all credit to her in terms of doing all of the wonderful things like setting up the research and all of our questions and organising ethical approval and whether that was needed and that kind of thing. And my role was predominantly from delivering the group and collecting all of the information. But this particular piece of research as such is it kind of more comes under the remit of audit and evaluation. So we didn't need full ethical approval, just talking more so just to the internal committees within research and development and that kind of department in the trust.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 35:12

Fabulous. And you really nicely demonstrated how you can get involved in research. So when I was an assistant, I definitely helped support trainees and they agreed that I could kind of put that as honorary research work on my forms. And I helped with some research when I was an assistant, which then got me my first publication, which then allowed me to do a presentation which counted as a dissemination. So I really do think that if you are looking to progress your career in psychology, that getting involved in research is so, so important. Do you want to name check your colleague whose research this is?

Aimee Shipp (: 35:53

I absolutely will. My colleague is Alana Foreman and she's doing some wonderful things like this piece of research.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 36:01

Lovely. Is it open access? Can anybody read the whole thing or is it just the abstract they can read?

Aimee Shipp (: 36:09

I believe it's open access. I don't currently, our Trust doesn't have access to all publications, but I can download it and read it so it should be available. But for those who are registered like studying university or something, they'll be able to access it anyway.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 36:28

Okay. I will make sure that I pop a link to it in the show notes, so if anybody wants to be able to take a read of it, they absolutely can. Before we finish, have you got any advice for any aspiring psychologists out there to reduce burnout? Aimee?

Aimee Shipp (: 36:45

I would say the most important thing is being able to recognise your limits. I think there is, we know that there's such a huge felt sense of pressure in this career pathway and trying to reach certain goalposts within certain times and get experience for this for your application and go experience here and there. But I think of, or there's a couple of things I'd suggest really is making sure that what you're doing is not only for the purpose of gaining experience but also something that you genuinely really enjoy and feel interested in because that will make such a difference to you day to day. And as I say, recognising those limits. I think we in this career path have a lot of perfectionism and that can drive us to push a lot of the time and in some ways that's a really brilliant trait, but also what is very helpful is being able to recognise when you need to take a step back and when you need to look after yourself. And I think just one of the biggest pieces of advice I would give particularly for those either getting onto the doctorate now, pushing to get their already studying, is just to look after yourself outside of work and outside of studying, do the things that feel nourishing to you. Say no when you need to prioritise you and your time and rest time and know that rest is just as productive as doing.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 38:22

Beautiful. So lovely and so important. Aimee, thank you so much for speaking with us. It's been incredible. It's not a topic that we've covered trauma stabilisation, but it's so important. And actually what we found is that sometimes people choose not to go on to process their traumas because they are feeling that they can manage everything so much better. So things do stay in their box more and we can think about it as phases of intervention. So maybe we do the stabilisation phase and maybe in a couple of years they might feel ready and have the necessary bolt-on skills to be able to tolerate that processing stage better.

Aimee Shipp (: 39:02

Absolutely. And that's why it's so important to think about right order, right thing, right time.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:09

Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a beautiful episode. Thanks Aimee.

Aimee Shipp (: 39:15

Thank you for having me, Marian.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:17

You're so welcome. Thank you so much to our guest, Aimee. I think she's just doing an incredible job and the service sound like a really brilliant service to be part of, very thoughtful, compassionate, empathic, and hopefully the clients are finding it to be a really, really valuable service. What has this evoked for you? Has this made you think about whether you could deliver something similar in future? Has it made you think about whether you'd like to learn some trauma stabilisation skills to either help yourself or to help the clients you are working with? Do check out the Feel Better Academy, which is available on the short course area of my website, which is www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/short courses where you can get the Feel Better Academy for 49 99, which will help you as an aspiring psychologist or a clinician to be able to learn those skills, those strategies to be able to help yourself and the clients you work with.

(: 40:22

I would love any feedback you've got about this episode. Please do come along and follow me on socials. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere, but also come and join the free Facebook group, the Aspiring Psychologist Community, and let me know what you think there too. Take a moment to rate and review the podcast. It would be so appreciated. It's the kindest free thing you can do for me. And please also, if you're watching on YouTube, please do subscribe to the channel. Thank you so much for being part of my world. Please do stay kind to yourselves and I'll be back along with the next episode 10:00 AM on YouTube on Saturdays and 6:00 AM on Mondays for the MP three. Take care. See you

Jingle Guy (: 41:08

Very soon. If you're looking to become a psychologist, then podcast.