From Police Officer to Trainee Clinical Psychologist at Age 47

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

Medically retired at 40 trainee clinical psychologist at 47. Claire's story is one of reinvention, resilience and doing the impossible landing a place on the doctorate in clinical psychology on her first ever application. If you've ever questioned whether it's too late for you to chase your dreams or feared that you don't fit the mould, this episode will show you exactly why that thinking needs to change. Hope you find it super useful. I welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Some of my most popular content on YouTube has been that of older applicants. Whilst you mentioned YouTube, if you don't already like and subscribe, please do take a moment to do that. Now, today's episode is helping us take a look at an old applicant. She's 47 currently and has just gained a place as a trainee clinical psychologist. It is a fascinating episode. We do discuss issues around suicide, around traumatic workplace settings around prison. So if you are around young ears or you think that maybe now is not the most appropriate time for you to look after yourself, please do feel free to come back to this episode at a later stage. Hope you find it really useful and I'll catch you on the other side. So Claire Dunn, welcome along to the podcast and congratulations on becoming an incoming trainee clinical psychologist.

Claire Dunn (: 01:26

Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, it's such a privilege to be invited to come along and join you today.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:33

Well, we got chatting on LinkedIn, didn't we? And your story is not typical and I love it because actually you had a successful career in the police. You rose to the level of police sergeant, and I hope it's okay to say that your current age is let say you say your current age. How old are you, Claire?

Claire Dunn (: 01:55

I'm very proudly 47.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:58

Okay. So

Claire Dunn (: 01:59

You've had

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:01

Amazing, so you've had a career in the police and then obviously at some point you thought, no, I think maybe psychology is actually where I want to be. Could you talk us through some of that, Claire?

Claire Dunn (: 02:14

Yeah. So I joined the police at 20. I really didn't really know what I wanted to do. I wasn't a child that grew up, wanted to be a police officer. If I'm honest. I wanted to be a blue Peter presenter. And at the age of 20, I kind of thought that's unrealistically going to happen. And I had a friend join the police and I really was excited by the things she was doing and the riot training. And I thought, well, I'll give that a well, I applied and I got in straight away, which I was really quite surprised about if I'm honest. So at 20 I started my police career. At the age of 27 I was promoted to police sergeant and I worked predominantly response. So your blue lights, your urgent jobs. I specialised also in child video interview, so children who were witnesses of victims of crime custody.

(: 03:17

I did a stint as custody sergeant, which I enjoyed very much and I completed 18 years service. However, towards the end of my service, it became apparent that my mental health had been quite severely impacted by some of the trauma that I'd been exposed to through the incidents that I'd attended. And there were maybe four or five incidents that I kind of had reoccurring thoughts about and struggled to process. Unfortunately, a decision was made that I needed to be medically retired. I was diagnosed with PTSD as a result of attending those incidents. And unfortunately my career came to quite an abrupt end at the age of 38. And I found myself having finished one career, wondering what I was going to do next. I was very clear I didn't want my life to be defined by a job I once did. And it was really important to me that I had a second identity.

(: 04:23

Very few police officers go on to do anything else once a police officer, always a police officer. And that was very much the narrative and the culture from which I came from. And at 38 I had a medical pension. I could have kept it there, but I decided no, I wanted, it was really important to me to have a second really meaningful career in which to live out the rest of my life with. I'm not someone that wants to retire at 65 or I'm very much working is part of who I'm and my identity, but it needed to be something equally as meaningful.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:06

Yeah. Well thank you on behalf of the great British public for the service that you provided in policing. It's not an easy job and it is very nuanced. It's very important, but it also, it does have an impact. And actually medical retirement is not uncommon I've experienced in police services, but also nor does it come without great levels of sometimes shame and regret and blame and kind of sadness about that because people have often really enjoyed working in the police and that part of their identity. And so when medical retirement is kind of first mooted, that sometimes feels quite challenging in itself. And we probably could do another whole episode on that and maybe we will in future. But how did you then begin to think about psychology?

Claire Dunn (: 05:59

So I studied psychology A level. I'd always really enjoyed it. I was always been fascinated by human behaviour. And as a police officer, I, unlike many of my colleagues, I did look beyond the offender and I always wanted to understand I had this real innate desire to understand how offenders came to be where they were at that point in time, what was their back story? I don't believe people are born mad or bad. There is always a backstory. And working in custody and as a police constable, I would spend a lot of time conducting constant supervisions with detainees within custody to safeguard them because they were a risk to themselves. There was either a suicidal or a self-harm risk. So I could spend upwards of 10 hours a day, literally sat outside a cell and talking with offenders, young and old. And it became really apparent that there was a trauma theme that ran through pretty much every offender I met.

(: 07:10

And that trauma then translated into substance misuse. So be it, drugs, alcohol, they became incredibly vulnerable. In particular the females that I encountered and in turn turned to offending behaviour. And it was this cycle that was perpetuated by the trauma that they had experienced. But as a police officer, it's a very punitive role and there is no opportunity really to kind of support in any type of rehabilitation. So when I came out of the police and I was medically retired, I thought again about psychology and mental health specifically. I attended more attempted and completed suicides than I can recall. The number was so devastating actually, and I can talk a little bit about some of those experiences later, but I felt quite drawn to mental health and improving the lives of others that were struggling with mental health. And we know that offending behaviour and mental health go hand in hand.

(: 08:17

Trauma and then mental health and offending behaviour also go hand in hand as well. So on a whim and literally on a whim, late one August, I decided to sign up for the open university psychology degree that started the following month and it really was on a whim. I had done a degree, I made the decision to go straight into the police rather than do a degree. I was meant to do primary school teaching and I changed my mind at the last minute and didn't go. So on a whim I signed up for the degree and that's where it all started.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:57

Amazing. And we'll perhaps hear a bit more about your experiences in flexible learning and self-paced learning often a little bit later, but I just wanted to pick up on what you'd said about the prison service and the justice services being full of traumatised people and it's so incredibly true, and if people want to learn more about that, I would really recommend an incredible book by Chris Dore qc, which is called Justice on Trial. Such an interesting book and I might well reach out to Chris and see if you'll come and talk to us on the podcast because it's such an interesting topic and I'm intrigued about before you started your undergrad with the ou, did you have any relevant experience roles working in mental health?

Claire Dunn (: 09:43

So shortly after I was medically retired and once I was, well again, having received quite intense CBT therapy, I made the decision to start working with young people in alternative education. So I worked for an alternative education provision, which are very similar to what were known as pros, so pupil referral units. So they're settings that provide alternative education for young people that are unable to access full-time mainstream education due to a number of enduring issues, including mental health issues and challenging behaviour arising from trauma. I work predominantly with looked after children. I did that for five and a half years in total, and I worked in that setting on a part-time basis alongside my degree with the open university. So I feel that it gave me a lot of experience and I was able to really reflect on what I was learning within the content of the psychology degree and reflect and put that into practise with working with these young people. So really, really super helpful.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 11:02

Amazing. And how long did it take you to do your undergrad degree? And a question I've always wondered, do you still get an in-person graduation even though it's kind of all remote?

Claire Dunn (: 11:15

You do. You do. And actually that graduation was something I held in mind. My best friend had completed her teaching degree with the Open University before and I remember her on her graduation walking across the stage at the Bar theatre in London. And on those really difficult days, nights, early hours of the morning when I'm trying to meet deadlines of assignments, it was that I really held in mind. So the degree in total on a part-time basis is six years. However, in year one there is the opportunity where you can do two modules immediately after each other. So whereas you would normally work from October, the course would start and you would normally finish at the start of June. I have the opportunity to complete the second module, which is equivalent of the second year by starting that. I think I started that in around March and that went all the way through to the end of September.

(: 12:25

So in that first year I had about four months where I overlapped two modules and that was really, really challenging in terms of time when I started my degree, my children were 11 and 13, so I was still very much a mom and the commitments of all the clubs and school and everything like that, my daughter was still in primary school, so I was still doing school pickup and balancing working in the school as well. So that first year was really tough. However, it paid dividend because it actually reduced the length of the course from six years to five years. It did mean I didn't get a summer break from it in that first year, but it did mean that I was able to complete the degree in five years, which I actually really recommend for anybody. If you can manage to do that, then I think that's really, really helpful to reduce it by a year.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 13:28

Yeah, absolutely. And what stage are we at now? How long was it ago that you graduated from your OU degree?

Claire Dunn (: 13:37

So I started in 2018. I completed in June, 2023, graduating in September, 2023. So we're coming up for over two years now.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 13:53

Amazing. And what have you been doing since?

Claire Dunn (: 13:57

So as soon as I had, I received my result, my classification, I worked really hard. I was very driven to achieving a first, and the reason I was so driven to achieving a first is I had joined a webinar about clinical psychology and roots into clinical psychology. And at this point I knew nothing. I didn't even really know the difference between a clinical psychologist, a counselling psychologist, forensic educational, and I watched this webinar and I saw the success rate in terms of age, and then it got to the forties and I think it was less than 1%. And it was really emphasised that how competitive it was and a first class degree was really quite important. So I made it really my life's work really at the time to secure that first. So as soon as I had that confirmation that I'd received the first and I had my degree was all confirmed, I started applying for assistant psychologist roles within the local area.

(: 15:09

I had one interview quite quickly, I didn't get the job. I got some really lovely feedback and the feedback I got was the applicant that we have recruited had previous NHS experience and that was evidence through the language that they used that they'd worked within the NHS before I then went again. I got another interview very quickly and within a month I had secured an assistant psychology post, and this was in a mental health support team, so working in schools. So actually even though I didn't have that clinical NHS experience, the experience I'd gained through working within an education setting really placed me in a really good strong position for that post. And I was really fortunate that I got that

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:02

Well done to you. And I know that when I chatted with Sam previously about kind of the barriers to progressing in psychology when you might be slightly older than the average applicant, that actually the salary of an AP role typically at Band four or Band five can keep people quite stuck from accessing that route because of course if you've got a family to support, that is not a massive salary in this day and age. And I'm guessing the police pension obviously helps subsidise that to make it more accessible for you. And I'm very pleased to hear that you've been able to do that and that I guess ultimately that's meant that you are now you've been able to apply to the doctorate in clinical psychology. I think I'm right in saying the first time and then you were successful and have got on. Tell us about that process for you.

Claire Dunn (: 16:56

The process of becoming an AP in terms of salary that you've mentioned is really problematic and it's something I feel quite passionate about actually. I'm very fortunate. I have a husband who brings in a good income and alongside my pension, I could supplement my salary with my pension, I could top it up. Had I been an older applicant with children, it would've been impossible. You cannot survive on it. I think I worked it out, it's something like 12 pounds an hour. I could have got paid more in Aldi working in Aldi or little at the time I think they were paying 13 pounds an hour. So it's really difficult. It's extremely problematic and again, it closes that route off to so many people that are not in that privileged position to be able to do that. And something needs to change. And that's something when I am qualified and I feel that my voice can be heard a little more that I would like to advocate. In particular older entrant aps, the majority of aps I work with, they do still live at home. So it is accessible to go on that band four wage, but there is absolutely no progression. Like you say, band five AP roles are non-existent. Certainly within the trust that I currently work in, there aren't band four band five roles anymore. So you are really stuck and unlike the other banding whereby you move to the next increment after two years for band four, it's three. So you really are very, very stuck in that role.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 18:41

Yeah, thank you for talking to us about that. And I hope it didn't feel kind of too prying, but I know it is a really important conversation. And if we really want to advocate for diversity in our workforce, it matters, doesn't it? And we don't want people to be in a position where they're having to go to the bank and saying, can I have a loan to support me to be an assistant psychologist? Because ultimately I'll be able to pay that back hopefully when I'm a qualified psych. That's not how we want to be getting diversity in our workforce. So tell us then about what came next. So from that one AP role, have you then applied to the doctorate in clinical psychology?

Claire Dunn (: 19:23

I knew that before I could apply, I needed 12 months experience, clinical experience, which prior to entering the NHSI didn't have. So initially I thought, great, I will graduate and I will apply that year and that will start the process. And then somebody told me the reality and I was very much, oh, okay, so then I had to accept I was going to be an AP on a band for wage for a minimum of two years. And I got my head around that through thinking that it would be an investment I was investing, this was a stepping stone and it would require some investing. So I worked within the mental health support team as an ap. I worked beyond my remit. I went a little bit further. I brought over my passion for reducing male suicide based on the experiences I'd had with attempted and completed male suicides into this service.

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It was clear from the outset there was a huge disparity between the number of boys and girls being referred into the service for low mood and anxiety. And I really wanted to understand why that was with male suicide, the leading cause of death in men under the age of 50. For me, it was blatantly obvious that we needed to be targeting boys at a younger age to break down those barriers and stigmas, enable them to feel safe and secure, to access mental health support at a much earlier stage and to recognise the science of poor mental health, which I think is something that still needs a lot of work. So I started a quality improvement project and I based it in a school. And that project really did give me a springboard into my career. I had a very unique opportunity. I had to present the findings of my project to the trust executive board of directors.

(: 21:26

I was able to increase the number of referrals from this school from 4% for boys up to 50% by between January of 2024 and November of 2024. So in that short space of time, I did that through a number of route including VO assemblies to raise awareness of mental health in which I invited a guest speaker from Health Watch Essex who had lived experience of mental health. I developed a boys participation group so that the boys could be heard and they could shape the service they receive. And that gave me an awful lot of really valuable experience that I could use as evidence for my doctorate application, which was really helpful. And that's something I really advocate. Any aps go beyond your role and your remit look to do something different such as a quality improvement project. We know that we go and we do clinical service audits and we'll look at data, but see what more you can do because I truly believe that that work that I did, which is work that I would like to continue as part of my thesis, if that is I'm allowed to do so. That work really did provide me with that additional evidence that I needed to demonstrate that I was ready for the doctor.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 23:02

And it sounds like such an important piece of work and well done to you for reducing that disparity in gender referrals to actually make it equitable, 50 50 boys and girls, that's really important. And I'm just going to point out that the episode before this one with Jack Lowe for our watches and our listeners, is about making the most of the experiences you find yourself in. And we talk about something called kind of job crafting, which is exactly what you've just spoken about, trying to really maximise your opportunities for learning and growth. So if people want to learn more about that and haven't already watched or listened to the episode with Jack, please do check that episode out as well. So you got all this kind of on a form, you were happy with your form, you clicked submit. Then what happened?

Claire Dunn (: 23:54

Then I changed jobs. So I stayed within the mental health support team beyond the 12 months purely because wanted to see through the quality improvement project. So I stayed in the end, I think it was 19 months, so longer than anticipated. However, I click submit and thought, okay, I'm either going to get on this year or I'm not. The likelihood is I'm not, the odds are stacked against me because we know the statistics, we know the ratio and we know the chances of getting on first time are really, really slim. So I need another role. If I'm going to apply a second time, I need a different position in a different service to show that I'm expanding my skills and I'm able to diversify and work within another setting. So I applied for a number, assistant psychologist roles within Essex where I live and within London as well.

(: 24:57

I was really lucky once again, I had an interview with an eating disorder service based in barking, covering, barking and dham, mortham, forest redbridge and havening boroughs of London. And in April of this year, I joined the intensive support pathway of the CAMS section of the eating disorders service. So I've been working as an AP now since April. I did break the news prior to starting great news for me, but I said for full transparency, they knew that I had applied. I was very open in the interview. I had applied except for transparency. I have been offered a place and I have accepted. So my time here will be short, but I'll give it everything a hundred percent. And they wanted some support with setting up a quality improvement project, which is ongoing at the moment. So they were still keen for me to go, which I was really relieved about because actually I was really excited at getting that experience.

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So from April until I start on the 1st of October, I'm in the eating disorder service and the experience is incomparable to anything that I've ever done before. Having that physical health component to the assistant psychologist role is so valuable. I feel like a nurse. I do blood pressure, I do the way in the bloods temperature, and I really enjoy that physical health aspect. I work really closely with psychiatrists, clinical psychologists, psychotherapists, really, really experienced clinical nurse specialists, and I feel so fortunate to have been able to have these five months within that service. So that is what I did. So after I clicked submit, that's what I initially did, and that's worked out well,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:03

It has. But I do want to shift your narrative and perspective slightly because you keep telling us that you're lucky, you are very skilled, you are a strong applicant and you deserve to be here. You have had a successful long career as a police sergeant and all that that entails with working with offenders, working probably closely with families as well, and staff teams and the police organisation as a whole. Also, you've applied yourself very, very firmly and strongly in your OU degree and you've got a first and you've gone above and beyond in every role you've done and done that job crafting. But also you haven't thought, right? Well, I've clicked submit. I'll just wait and see. You've thought, well, how can I make myself an even stronger applicant? So I've got maybe something else extra to talk about an interview or just more strings to my bow for next time. You deserve to be here, Claire, and I'm so excited for your future cohort. Who gets a police sergeant background and expertise, who gets someone that's a mummy to probably quite grown up people now. So you've come through the education system who is married and all that that entails who likely has her own experience of grief loss friendships, but also applying yourself and holding yourself accountable and self-actualizing. I would say you are not lucky. You are an incredibly strong candidate and that the doctorate course are lucky to have you.

Claire Dunn (: 28:49

Thank you. I think we experienced imposter syndrome quite a lot, don't we? I remember getting the first AP role and being told it can take years to get your first AP role. I had a 10 year plan. My 10 year plan was, I started by degree at the age of 40 in 2018, and my 10 year plan worked like this. Okay, so six years for the degree that was initially one year clinical experience, three years doctorate, and I will qualify at 50. I then brought that down to five years. And then I had that realisation that actually it would be two years before I could start the doctorate once I started to get clinical, but I'd have to get on first time. So this 10 year plan was going to be tough. I secured my AP role literally within a few weeks of getting my final result for the degree.

(: 29:48

And I remember on my first day going into my trust and I worked for a wonderful trust, Northeast London Foundation Trust and picking up my badge and seeing the words assistant psychologist on my ID badge and feeling so proud. So chuffed going in and on my first day I met with my team and I worked with some wonderful people in mental health school team, but there was this one individual who was a band five at the time, so not a senior. And she said to me in front of everybody, I don't mean to be rude, but you are only a band four. What could you actually do? And at that point, my bubble burst and that realisation hit me. I'm only a band four and I've been fighting against that psychologically ever since. And I think that's why I probably on reflection, use terms such as lucky. I've been called out a few times for saying I'm only a band four. And my colleagues and my seniors have said, Claire, you are not only a Band four, you are so much more than a band four. You're so different to any assistant psychologist we've ever had. You need to stop saying you're only a band four.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 31:12

And I would second that. But also a question that I'll often ask someone in a trauma service is how much of that that person said to you, do you need to hold onto? And how much can you let go?

Claire Dunn (: 31:26

That comment has driven me, and after my bubble burst, it lit a fire in my belly. And yes, I am currently a band five, I'm going to be a band six, I'm going to leap. I'm going to be that band six. And then on qualification, going to be a band seven. Within 12 months, I'll be an eight a. And my aim is a band nine. I want be making, I want to be an executive director. I want to be making fundamental changes and improvements within the NHS, within the trust from a band for I have battled to make those changes. To me, it's so clear what we need to do, for example, in schools to reduce male suicide. Let's start with the younger generation now. But as a band four, I just don't have that network. I don't have that connections authority. But that comment really drove me. And that's something that I belong to a number of AP forums and aps often feel very demoralised by how they're regarded. People don't have an understanding of the skills that they bring. And I use that story a lot. Let that bring fire in your belly. One day I will supervise that clinician and I will remind her what she told me, and I'll ask her never to repeat that and never say that to anybody else. That is on their way up,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:58

Up. You are a force to be reckoned with, and I am excited to see how you thrive and how you grow. And please do keep us posted. If you've got any kind of last advice for someone listening to this who maybe not feeling that maybe their time has ticked past for them or that they've been burned by people that have made them feel that they can't do this, what would you say, Claire?

Claire Dunn (: 33:23

This is a long, hard process. To become a clinical psychologist, I think is actually longer than to become a medical doctor. I think it takes longer. It has to be your passion, your dream. You have to be motivated. You have to really, really, really want it. If you don't, I don't think it's necessarily the right path for you, but if you do, then never give up. I have a friend who I've met through AP forums. We worked on a AP community of practise together with the Psychology Psychological Professions Network, the PPN she got on this year after seven attempts. She's also an older applicant. She has children, and this was her seventh year and she's got on. So if that's what you really want, then just don't give up. Be really, really focused and look beyond the undergrad, look beyond the band for and the future.

(: 34:28

And that's what I've always held in mind. So when I'm feeling really demoralised, really undervalued, I hold that in mind. I hold that. And when I got that email to say, been offered a place, I cannot begin to describe how that felt. It was unreal that I got that. I got one shot, I got one interview, one shot, and I knew everything was waging on that. The other three, I didn't get an interview. I wasn't shortlisted. So I had one shot. I was my true, authentic self in interview everybody told me to be. I thought, I don't think that's good enough. On the day I decided I would be, and it's paid off. Just don't give up. And it's never, ever, ever too late to change career. I will qualify at 50. I have no plans to retire. I've got friends my age that's talking about winding down. I'm winding up, and I will continue working for as long as my brain will allow me to cognitively continue working. And I'll be working within the NHS as well. And I'm super excited.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 35:46

Amazing hats off to you and many, many congratulations. But this is not a fluke. This is not a fluke. You absolutely have earned your stripes and you deserve to be there. You deserve to be here, and I'm excited to see how you grow. So please do stay in touch with us.

Claire Dunn (: 36:05

Thank you so much. I will do. And thanks for having me on.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 36:08

Oh, you're so welcome. Lovely to get into chat with you. It's been a real privilege. Have a beautiful rest of summer and hope that your training goes well. Thank you. What an absolutely brilliant episode. That was what a real privilege to speak to Claire. And if you like me, think that Claire is an incredibly capable applicant. Please do give her some love in the comments on YouTube. And if you're seeing this content on social media, please do like, comment, and share to help it reach the widest audience possible. If you are able to rate or subscribe to shows or follow creators that you really rate, that really is the kindest thing you can do. So please do do that if you love the content that I create here. If you've got any ideas for future episodes, please don't be a stranger. Please do come and connect with me on my social media where I'm Dr.

(: 36:56

Marianne Trent, everywhere. If you are an aspiring psychologist and you are thinking that it's your time and you're ready for the next step, but perhaps you don't have the requisite support, guidance, nurturance things to help you stretch your own development, then please do consider joining us in the Aspiring Psychologist Membership Community, which gets wonderful reviews and which you can join for just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term. And then of course, if you are ready for something a little bit more intensive and a little bit more time with me, please do consider the Ready to Rise programme, which is just the biggest pleasure to run. And that means that you get 12 one-to-one sessions with me across a year plus a load of other great benefits too, which you can check out in the description on YouTube for this video or in the show notes on social media. Or if you click any of my link tree bios, you'll find the information for the membership and for Ready to rise there, please do come and grab your free Psychology success guide from my website, www dot aspiring psychologist co uk.

Jingle Guy (: 38:08

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