No Assistant Psychologist Role? How Job Crafting Can Shape Your Psychology Career

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

What if the key to your psychology career isn't about ticking all the usual boxes, but rewriting the script entirely? In today's episode, I'm joined by Jack Lowe who shares how he carved out a meaningful psychology path without ever landing an assistant psychologist role from setbacks to speaking gigs. This one is for anyone wondering if there's still a way in for them, even if it doesn't look like the traditional route. Hope you find it super useful. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Now, I did take quite a traditional route, but I do feel like I've been able to be reflective and curious and make the most of roles that haven't seemed that relevant at the time. And that is something that I am speaking with Jack about today who is an expert in this. And we've got lots of interesting theory concepts, kind of modelled ways of working, and this is a really lovely episode. Hope you find it really useful. I'll catch you on the other side. Hi, I just want to welcome along our guest for today, Jack Lowe. Hi Jack. Welcome along.

Jack Lowe (: 01:13

Hi, it's great to be here today. Thank you for having me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:16

Thank you for being here. And thank you for pitching the episode to me because actually I really love it when people come up with diverse angles for talking about psychology and their passion and why it matters to them. So tell us a bit about what people might get from today, please, Jack.

Jack Lowe (: 01:38

Yeah, I think from today I really want to try and frame my experience. I've only recently discovered I'm quite an unconventional untraditional student and my career has definitely followed that as well. Working very entry level roles to customer service. I've really had to get creative with how I can make the most out of these roles to make them psychologically informed to get to where I'm now. I'm looking to work for a large mental health charity. I'm looking to work as a regional manager with that. I'm also now doing a master's, but it's not always been a straightforward start. There's been a lot of redos, some failings and having to really learn from that, which we really want to try and promote today for students, other aspiring psychologists.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:24

Amazing. So now we know what we're going to get. Let's have a little bit of an overview about who we're going to get it from. So tell us a bit about yourself, Jack.

Jack Lowe (: 02:31

Yeah, absolutely. So obviously my name is Jack Lowe. I'm born and based in Blackpool. I did, I think some of my takeaways is that I've done the university after three false attempts. I've had a failing, I've had a dropout. I've had a similar with form as well. So my relationship with education always been a little bit complex and then I've returned as an adult learner. Same with building my career. So for the longest part I started off in telesales and then kind of went into customer service. It was all these kind entry level roles and I got to a point my thought, I need to get a little bit more serious about developing my career, but I also have bills to pay and I need to do what I need to do now. So what can I do to really make the most of that? And now as I'm doing my master's, I've got a definition for that. I've got a term for it that we talk about around job crafting. So what we can do to make that role fulfilling for us and get us to our long-term goals. So really get a bit creative with it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:37

Amazing. Tell us a bit more about job crafting then.

Jack Lowe (: 03:41

So job crafting is the term. It can be done across different ways. There's a few little breakdowns from it, whether it's cognitive crafting. So the way we think about our role, very similar for those that are looking more at maybe mental health or clinical psychology around that kind of cbt, what are my thought patterns around this? And I know there's been several studies around people assessing their wellbeing, their mood and job satisfaction based on how they think about their role, whether they view it positively, whether they view it negatively, or whether they view it as being important. So whether you are someone that is just cleaning the floors or keeping this hospital safe and sanitary to benefit people and having that kind of difference in thinking pattern has a massive effect. But then also the more practical the task crafting. So what kind of tasks do I do in my day to day? What is it in my job description and what is it I actually want to do that I'm passionate about? That fulfils me, that challenges me. And I definitely think that's something I've been doing without knowing the term over the last couple of years to really bring psychology to a role even though it's not a traditional psychology role like an ap.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:57

Definitely. And I think that's something that really resonates with me actually one of my very early podcast episodes is about making the most of kind of psychology roles to still strengthen and advance your career. And I think that's probably because because of its age, it's one of the most downloaded episodes as well. But because it does matter, what we learn along the journey does matter. And I wonder whether the concept of job crafting that perhaps you and I have been doing before, knowing what it was called maybe helps us to maybe not burn out as well because it feels like you've got your own little sort of mission, your own kind of purpose. But I guess once you feel like you've reached saturation point, you might then risk bore out and it's then that you've reached the limit of what you can gain from that. And maybe that's an indication that it's time to move on

Jack Lowe (: 05:53

A hundred percent. And I think it would be down to the individual what their core job is and maybe how far they can push with the boundaries. I know in some of my say more entry level positions or in call centres that you are very restricted to what you can do. So you do have to be a little bit creative to market either additional duties, but even things well, there's sometimes a little bit of a sacrifice to get what you may need. So I know in the past I've done volunteering work as well as an additional to my hours to fulfil those needs that I wanted. Alongside that, I've also volunteered with the BPS and sat on their committee. So again, to build experience and interest and have a little play around with what do I actually enjoy doing? Do I enjoy writing content? Do I enjoy supporting people directly and have a little play around with it rather than just focusing on the end destination of a particular job role.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 06:49

Yeah, absolutely. And I know I've worked in call centre as well before and thinking about actually the skills that we've got perhaps as a result of doing our undergrad, that actually might mean that we are an asset to the service as well that we can get involved with thinking about data, thinking about some of the kind of people management and the way that people work really well together and kind of productivity and proactivity as Dr. Joe Grey was telling us about recently. And yeah, for me I found was getting permission to do a little bit less of the work I was paid for and a little bit more of cultivating the relationship with my manager to do other jobs that support the functioning of the team, but also then reduce the pressure for me having to answer the calls relentlessly all day.

Jack Lowe (: 07:38

A hundred percent. I know in the last two call centres I worked in, the way I did it was through mental health first aiders. So in one of the call centres I was customer service. We were taking calls from people, we were actually overseeing their payroll. So we'd get people angry if there was an issue with their wages. If the people aren't sent over a time sheet and we were processing a payment, they've got a weekend, they've got bills, they've got family, we'd get them in really high emotional states. We'd have people going off work for sickness, struggling with their mental health, workplace bullying, whatever it may be. So that's where I saw an opportunity and said, well actually I'd like be a mental health first aider. We had them in the company already, but they typically are our HR accountants and not people customer facing.

(: 08:31

So I said, this is why it'll be a benefit. We all struggle with these calls. It gives me a skill, it's something I'm passionate in. It's a bit of a no brainer. It suits everyone. So that was what I did and I really enjoyed that because allowed me to use different skills that were still relevant. So if I wanted to continue going into a AP role or a pwp, it's that experience of talking to people in an emotional state in a crisis, trying to support them sound post empathetic and active listening and utilising those skills in quite an untraditional context. And the last contact centre I worked in, we didn't have any mental health first aiders in the call centre. We had a bit of a divide because there was two buildings, so you had one building call centre, then you had the other building that was all the finance, l&d, hr.

(: 09:24

So we were a little bit left alone and I said, well, nobody wants to speak to the head of hr. Let me again become a mental health first aid, do it as part of your network. And then there's someone on the ground that was really popular as a mental health first aid. And it saddens me to think these people may not have reached out to support across the road in the other building. So for anyone listening to definitely encourage that if you all wanted to work more with mental health, the more clinical or counselling psychology side, that's a good way you can get some experience in a non-traditional role in your corporate role. If you are still working in call centres or in hospitality or whatever it may be, that's a really good way you can try and gain some of those skills and experiences.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:11

Absolutely. And if you can get it done within your job role where you are already salaried or you are already earning money, then that's even more equitable for you and for others accessing the career as well because obviously voluntary and honorary work as a whole heap of ethical considerations. But if we can build that in and then get the skills even when we're doing on paper unrelated work, we're able to actually evidence these key clinical groups that we've worked with even outside of clinical settings. So of course if someone was looking to think about coming into clinical psychology, the four core groups we'll often look at are children, young people and families, working age adults, older adults and people with intellectual disabilities. So if you are able to almost become like a core champion in the work that you are doing already for one of those areas.

(: 11:13

So I know for example, one of my friends who's not an aspiring psych but works in a medical surgery really enjoys and has previously worked with people with intellectual disabilities. And so actually is now almost a champion for doing things within her work role to really support people with intellectual disabilities. And that's a really nice example of job crafting that whatever you are doing is there a champion, could you be it to help service run better, which will help the clients accessing the service. It potentially helps upskill other people in the service as well, but helps you to evidence that you've got real skills in this area and to potentially identify future training, you might need to support that. And before you know it, you're building those blocks on your way

Jack Lowe (: 12:07

A hundred percent. And it's definitely something I've been lucky. It's kind of grasp some of the opportunities off through my current role. I'm part of a wellbeing network, so I've been running workshops, I've been applying psychological theory, I was doing the hero model for developing psychological capital to how people can prevent burnout and custom themselves. But again, that's very untraditional. It's not necessarily part of our job role, but it's something a lot of organisations will have both in public and private sector of champion roles and mental health first aiders things around wellbeing or diversity and inclusion and especially in charities as well, a lot of the co-production groups as well. So again, all hands on experience with people directly going for a common goal, an achievement, there's an objective there and then you can also apply your theory to that as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 13:01

Fabulous. I don't think we've spoken about the hero model on the podcast before. Are you able to tell us a little bit more about that jack bit?

Jack Lowe (: 13:08

Absolutely. So I really enjoy the hero model, I think parsley because it's got a very nice catchy title. In my workshop I phrased it quite cringey, but I'm all here for a little bit of cheese of be your own hero. And then I talked about the hero model. So it was a wonderful segment for me. It was done by, I think it was Lofton, etal I think 2006. And it's all around psychological capital. So the resources we have as an individual to make sure we're resilient, we've got positive wellbeing and there's been loads of studies around it, especially in the workplace on preventing burnout, job satisfaction, life satisfaction. And the hero stands for things that we can do to build hope, self-efficacy, resilience and optimism. So a lot of things that we can do and I bring it into the workplace of what we can do as an individual and what we can do systematically across the organisation working towards these kind of principles.

(: 14:10

So things we can do for hope, things around goal setting. So having a goal in mind to keep us hopeful. And also that sense of achievement, self-efficacy is rooted in how confident we're in our abilities. So I try and promote that as individuals around that training. What is it to make you feel confident in what you do? That kind of bleeds quite nicely into that resilience. So whether we're looking at things in a kind of problem focused orientation or solution focused, and if we've got the correct training with that, we might be able to make better judgement and we can workshop scenarios and then optimism. I tend to do that more CBT based things. So let's challenge some of those negative thoughts that we have, whether it's a case of 10, people keep emailing me for help and I'm getting frustrated. Can we reframe that something that's a more helpful and healthy thought of under go-to person when people need support. Support. And those little four things can really contribute to a much more positive day-to-day working sense of self. And that's the hero model in a bit of a nutshell.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 15:21

I love it. Thank you so much. I love this podcast as well. How incredible to be able to talk people through this. And I guess as you were talking, I was thinking about the optimism and I was thinking about when we're in an education system, we get used to thinking about what our level of capability is and sometimes we find ourselves in situations where actually we felt like we're falling short of where we would usually expect ourselves to be. And I know this is something we spoke about before we hit record that that's something I experienced probably both in A levels and in my undergrad as well. And I wish I'd known that actually it's okay to ask for help. And actually if you feel like you are not living up to your full potential where you typically see yourself or what you see yourself as being capable of, please do get yourself to the Centre for Academic Writing. Please do reach out to your tutor. Please do reach out and ask for more specific guidance about how you can meet the criteria that you are being judged against. What would you say about that, Jack?

Jack Lowe (: 16:34

A hundred percent. It's something I've realised. I wish I'd realised it sooner. I've done two undergrads with the Open University and I'm now doing my master's at Beck. My approach at Beck has been very different in terms of I'm reaching out for help and I'm making the most out of opportunities. So whether they do Q as around the assessments, my mind frame now is going to, this is not going to hurt me. It's only going to possibly help. So whereas before when I was a little bit younger or doing it with the open university, I think it's okay, I've got the brief. Whereas now as Joe Grey would say, I'm proactive in my approach. I'm the one instigating help because tutors and colleges typically won't reach out. It's up to me to speak up if I want that support. It's something I encourage as well in work because I work with a lot of people, all aspiring psychologists, people, first year students. I'll say anything you want to discuss, feel free to send me an email. I'm more than happy to help signpost recommend podcasts, whatever it may be. I've got my years of knowledge and experience that I want to share. And there are people in colleges, in schools, in universities who are passionate about helping students. You just need to say, hi, I'm one of the students that need help and they'll always be happy to

Dr Marianne Trent (: 18:01

Please keep saying that and please keep Des shaming that process because actually I needed to hear that more than once. And I probably only heard that maybe once at the start of my degree when I was 18, and actually I was 18, 19 and 20, I was a young one, so I didn't turn 21 until I'd almost, I'd finished already basically because I'm a June baby and I never once I would say sat on the front row of a lecture. It did tend to be the mature students, those that were 21 and above, but those mature students accessed and interacted with their education in a different way. And I always would've been like geek if I'd been able to apply myself in the way that they had, I would've done much better. And no, I think I almost got away from my roots actually, because when I was in year seven, year eight and nine, I loved learning, I loved it. I did all the homework, I did all the reading. I was very motivated by that. I think my downfall was boys Jack

Jingle Guy (: 19:06

Preaching

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:06

To the choir year 10. I was like, oh, there's some boys over there. And I just did less, but I wish I'd known. It's cool to learn, it's safe for you to be, I dunno the bod, the clever one. And you can do both. You can do both things. You can be snogging boys and still learning and still achieving and that's okay. And had I carried that through to my degree, it's like it's okay for you to have this really vibrant life, but also for you to still work as hard as you can and to achieve and definitely to ask for help. Yeah, it's safe for you to thrive and for you to be clever and achieve.

Jack Lowe (: 19:48

Yeah, no, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. That's definitely something I've learned as a mature student. Going back, I've had several kind of what traditionally will be seen as failings in terms of I've had to drop out of college. I think I actually did six form three times, then university, I think I did two full starts and then I kind of cracked it with the open university returning as a mature student, I did that twice and now into a master's. So there's definitely got to be a sense of you've got to put in the work and the effort. And that's something, it sounds cliche to say it, but I've definitely noticed when I've put in the effort and the time into my studies, it's paid off and my grades have been great and I think, oh, I actually just need to buckle down. I book that day off work and just do it.

(: 20:36

But there's also a case of sometimes it's got to be the right time. So I know I've definitely tried to do stuff with university and college where I wasn't in the right head space, I didn't have the right support and I was doing it. I wanted to do it, but it wasn't the right case for me. And stepping back and then returning to that, I can see actually sometimes everything's got to align when I've got the motivation and the capacity to actually learn and engage fully because I don't want to just do it with half effort. Especially when we think around things like shouldn't loans or if you're self-funding, you don't want to waste that money and that opportunity because there are regulations on how much funding you can and can't get, do it and give it everything.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 21:22

That was going to be my next question actually, that I want to thank you for normalising that actually sometimes it doesn't work the first time. Sometimes it doesn't work the second time, but actually if you still feel unfulfilled or if you feel like actually there's a different angle to this or that you are now more able to apply yourself or to hold yourself accountable or that your life factors are more stabilised, it's okay to go back. It doesn't matter what other people are saying. I'm sure when you said you were going to uni for the third time, there were people who probably had opinions about that, but it doesn't mean they're more important than your opinion and your ability and your need to self-actualize. Can I ask when it comes to, I did student finance, I know that sometimes you have a maximum number of years of undergrad and post-grad finance you can draw on. You might know more about that than me. Could you talk us through that a little bit, Jack, if you can?

Jack Lowe (: 22:17

Yeah, absolutely. So again, I was, and I'll put this one down to look. So I did my first undergrad with the open university. I did language studies. I had two passions. I've had them since mid teenage years. I've always been passionate about languages and cultures and psychology, so very people focused. So after a failed attempt at university in France, I was going to do psychology in France to set both needs, but it was very poorly planned and I just arrived at the university with a suitcase. There was minimal support there. I was technically homeless. I was staying in some hotels and motels in the south of France and I thought, no, this isn't what I hope I need to come home. So I went to Liverpool Hope again. It was a last minute decision and that wasn't the fit for me. I wasn't in the head space.

(: 23:09

I think I was struggling a little with my mental health, my sexual orientation. So I just came home, worked for a couple of years and I think about three, four years later I was working, I was doing bar work and it was four in the morning washing, bare soaked, bare mats and cloths and everything. I think I want something different. I need to get back into education. There was a delay with the student loan, so I deferred it for a year. And then I actually got funding first tuition fee loan. So I informed complete the degree. So with the open university, they have very flexible schedules. So whether I did it over three years or up to 12, it'll be funded because it's the one degree. And that was the kind of allowed part. I got a third in the end of that, which I wasn't happy with.

(: 24:03

I definitely think I could do better, but again, I think it was that case of maturity and just going through the motions with the studying. So I wanted to look into psychology again, what I was really passionate about, and at the time, I think it's still the case, you can get funding for a second undergrad if it's a STEM subject. So because psychology is a science, it was applicable. So I was actually lucky to get funding for a second undergrad where I invested a lot more time and effort and I went up from a third to a two one in my undergrad, which was an amazing achievement for me. It was definitely more of a reflection of what I believed I was capable about and it still fulfilled those needs. So I'm quite lucky in that respect. But yeah, so you're funded for whatever the degree is in completion and there's also additional funding if you want to do a second one as stem. So I'm lucky I did that order of languages and then a science.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 24:59

Okay, amazing. And I understand that actually the Aspiring Psychologist podcast might have been instrumental in giving you a final shove towards your identified masters. Is that correct?

Jack Lowe (: 25:10

A hundred percent. I'm not embarrassed to admit it. It was two or three events. So I know I actually went to C speak at the BPS career festival, I think in thousand 23. I think you were the keynote speaker. And I thought need to work something psychological. It's good to hear some of these diverse working patterns at the time I think has had intelli sales or customer service. So again, I was struggling to get into this space. I was doing my job crafting and my mental health first aid, and at that time I was thinking around going down the trainee pwp route and I was be person facing and do support that way. And then I listened to the podcast you did with Joe Grey, who we were joking about actually on LinkedIn the other day because she was actually one of my tutors doing my matters.

(: 26:01

I didn't realise it was the same Joe Grey, but she was explained around organisational psychology and that sounded so fascinating to me for where in my career, because I'll be honest, I quite like the corporate lifestyle. I like a nine to five. I like a home office, which I know in mental health work's not always the case. So it was a case of what's the right fit for me because I love helping people and that's my mission statement for who I am. I want help people. And again, innate mission, my calling between my, I also want a stable job. I also want a stable income. I want something after my own wellbeing. And then I heard about organisational psychology on this podcast and I thought, yeah, that's the fact, that's what I'm going to do. And then I found the masters with Birkbeck. It's one year to 18 months with a dissertation. I thought it fits my lifestyle. I could get funding for it as a master's. So I just went for it and it's been great. I must admit. So thank you for the podcast episode.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:17

Oh, well thank you. The idea that I'm my little baby that I came up with in my kitchen one day when I was cooking tea is actually helping shape people's career options, both now but also in the future. It is not lost on me. It's a real privilege, but also it kind of, I don't earn money from this podcast. It costs me 500 pounds a month of my own money to put it together. And that's without even taking a wage for it. I don't charge for my time. And so the fact that people are building time into their weekly schedules to watch it, to listen to it, and to actually take the learning points from it to change their lives, change their family's lives, and potentially the lives of the people they will work with in future, it's lovely. So I'm really pleased that

Jack Lowe (: 28:11

It ripples because I've recommended the podcast to people. It's even shaped my perceptions, my experiences when I'm now supporting people. I can think of at least five people in my role who I'm unofficially supporting or coaching, just whatever they need who are aspiring psychologists in one capacity or another. And again, that's helped shape my perspective to support others as well. So it definitely ripples out.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:38

One of my favourite things is when people request access to the Aspiring Psychologist community, which is my free Facebook group. There's a little kind of q and a there. How did you hear about the group or how did you hear about the podcast? I love it when people say, actually, my university lecturer told me about it. And I'm like, oh, that is so nice. That

Jack Lowe (: 28:58

Must feel amazing.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:59

That is so nice because it's getting quite leggy now. Really. It will be four years in December, I think I'm writing saying, and that's not a new podcast. I am currently in preparation for planning the 200th episode and what that might look like. And that's been 200 weeks of my life, Jack, because of the way I work, I need to either be on or off. So with the podcast I am on every week, every week for what are we now, a hundred and eighty seven, a hundred eighty eight, something like that. Every week there's been a podcast and all of the back office shenanigans that go with that. Each of the episodes has about 200 steps involved. And for me, that's just one of my regular go-tos. I work with my accountability coach, Ben, to just make sure that I'm covering all these any one time. I've got maybe 5, 6, 7 different episodes at various different stages of production. It's a military operation, but actually the fact that it's making a difference and becoming a regular a stall in psychology is amazing. So thank you to you, Jack, and thank you to my listeners and watchers as well. Like what a treat.

Jack Lowe (: 30:28

I think that's a good testament to something I know I did in my undergrad, as I'm sure many people listening to state will have that kind of panic over grades, assignments, classification. I really had to do a bit of reflection and think, what is it I want to do similar to what companies will have. I gave myself a little mission statement, which I alluded to of I wanted to help people in my head, or especially in year one, year two in my undergrad, in my head, that was simply, if I want to help people, I've got to be a clinical psychologist. I've got to do steps A, B, and C. And that was at a very limited lens. And as I was panicking about grades, I was trying to come up with a plan B and I thought, well, actually, if I want to help people, there are many different ways I can help people.

(: 31:12

It doesn't have to be solely as psychologist. And then that's when I've tried to diversify what I do. So even my role now, so my job title's regional support officer, so I work as a regional manager supporting services and teams. So on paper, it's not very psychological, it's not very supportive, but it's something I bring to the role. So I do have staff members ringing me in terms of crisis or if they need emotional support. I've delivered interventions to the people we support as well. I've put things in place around training and induction again to support people. So I'm still fulfilling my mission statement of wanting to help in a slightly untraditional way. But even yourself, like you say with the podcast, that's not a traditional duty one would expect of a clinical psychologist, but there are ways that you can help people in an untraditional sense, your community, your listeners, people getting that support they need from a relevant source. It's accessible. It's not behind a paywall. If you've got Spotify or Apple Music and any good podcast platform, they can access guidance from leading professionals, which again is a creative way in job crafting really.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:31

Absolutely. And I'll tell you off camera what the plans are for the 200 episode series, but I'm very excited. So yeah, watch this space listeners and viewers, and I will tell you more as soon as I can. Jack, is there anything we haven't covered that you think would be really useful for us to do before we finish together today?

Jack Lowe (: 32:52

I think one of the things I would like to say to anyone listening and watching today is don't be afraid to get creative with your experience and your journey. It's taken me many years to end up where I am, and that was just making the most out of opportunities. And some of the positions that I know a lot of students more covered for around the trainee PWPs aps declines are very competitive. So not to get disheartened with that make the most out of what you do have, whether it's a psychology related role or not. My role is not psychology related whatsoever on paper, but it's my approach. I approach things with evidence-based, I approach things with theory. So I definitely want to encourage people with that, engage in that kind of job crafting behaviours, try and find something that fulfils your needs and the needs of your employer.

(: 33:48

And there will be ways that you can do the two together and really reflect on what it's you want to do, what you want to achieve. And just going back on the experiences as well, think of the ways you can market them to employers when you are going for D declines or the AP roles. I often find, because I've conducted a lot of interviews in this current role, sometimes you need to be quite clear with how your marketing skills, similar to how we would write essays, once you've made a point, relate it back to the question, relate it to how that's going to benefit your employer. If it's a time you've overcome something, tell them that means I can keep cool, calm, and collected in a situation, let people really know what those skills are because they're all transferable. As cliche as it sounds, sometimes you need to connect the dots for whoever you're interviewing rather than make your own interpretation.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:46

Yeah, amazing. And I think I would really encourage people to not think about a timeline. So absolutely, if you've done your psychology undergrad and you're like, oh, I'm 21 now, I need to be an assistant psychologist by the time I'm 22, I would say i's probably unrealistic. That's probably putting more pressure on yourself than you need, because actually people who are often getting shortlisted for AP interviews have maybe done a few years of relevant experience roles. They may already have done a master's, and so take that pressure off. And don't assume just because you've got a psych undergrad that you can go on straight into an AP role because it's not impossible, but it's very uncommon. Even when I was graduating, and yes, do still apply for the jobs, you might get lucky, but please know, speaking from someone who is quite seasoned in this now, you really will be a better assistant if that's the route you're wanting to go down for having done those relevant experience roles.

(: 35:55

So by the time I was an ap, I had worked as a student support assistant at university. I had worked as a home carer, I had worked in a call centre, as we've already covered today. I then worked, went and worked for Milton King's Council for two and a half years in a rehab assistant role for physically disabled adults living in the community. I then did some honorary AP work using my annual leave for 10 days across a couple of months. I did that, and then I got a paid AP role, so that is not straight out of university. I also went travelling around the world for six months and saved up to do that beforehand. So yeah, really do take the timeline off this. I would say,

Jack Lowe (: 36:47

Yeah, a hundred percent married timeline has not been cohesive to follow, and I was trying to map it out mentally for this journey. I thought, I forgot. I did this small stint in the south of France back in 2013. What was I thinking? Definitely just enjoy the journey, not the destination, as cliche as it is, and enjoy the experience and just think of it as experience, gaining diverse experience. That's something I like as an employee when I'm doing interviews with people for our support roles is what can they bring to the team? What is suitable for us? What experience have they got working with people and whether it's people with mental health issues, drug and alcohol and substance learning difficulties, it's still a supportive role helping people. It just might not be the way as a student, you've lum it as a perfect linear fashion, but it's all relevant. Just enjoy that process, make those connections as well, your own kind of career network as well. And slowly it does kind of get there to where you want

Dr Marianne Trent (: 37:52

And get your reflective journal out, write about this stuff. Really think about shaping, growing, looking at your vulnerabilities, looking at your strengths. Really honestly, start writing. Do it either in your phone or actual book or on your computer. Start it, do it. Keep it up

Jack Lowe (: 38:16

A hundred percent in both the corporate world and now where I am working kind of third sector, there is a lot around reflection. It's something we encourage with our practitioners and recovery workers to be aware of the own shortcomings, whether it's more professional weaknesses around systems and case notes, or whether it's something in the therapeutic work they do. It's something you've got to be mindful of if you're thinking of working in mental health and counselling, even if you are thinking more of a corporate world as well. So what I do in organisational psychology, again, we have to do a lot of reflection for our biases when it comes to recruitment, selection, job design. So there is always reflection when you're working with people and the interpretation of people. So that's definitely a skill you can't develop enough. That's, again, come with age, but I would definitely recommend it for anyone listening and watching today.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:12

Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much for your time in speaking to us today. Jack, please do keep us updated on your career path as it unfolds as well. And yeah, thank you again for pitching this episode. I think it's going to be such a useful shot in the arm to so many people, but also just letting people know it's okay wherever you are right now, it's okay.

Jack Lowe (: 39:36

Yeah, yeah. You can learn from failure, you can use it, you can promote it, you can talk about how you've developed from that, and that's something I'm proud of now that I have failed. I failed several times and it's not going to plan, but I've made the most out of that. And now I'm at the start of this really good career trajectory towards the end of my master's. Now I'm just doing my dissertation. The journey will never stop. There's always something you can learn. There's always ways you can develop. So don't worry if the grades are never quite what you expected or the jobs aren't quite what you expected. They all form this bigger puzzle that is you, and that will definitely form your career later down the line as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:19

Amazing. And I think I also did an episode on all the ways I've failed in psychology or the seven ways I've failed in psychology or something like that. So what I'll do is I'll try and remember to mark that as the next episode on YouTube, but if you enjoy this chat about failure and you want to be validated in your own failure, do take a look out for that episode. Thank you so much for your time, Jack, and enjoy the beautiful black pool sunshine, won't you? Yes,

Jack Lowe (: 40:46

Absolutely. Absolutely will. And thank you again for having me today.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:49

Thank you. Thank you so much for my guest today. Please do drop some support, some encouragement into the comments. If you're watching this on YouTube, please do like and share this episode. And if you're not already subscribing to the channel, please do so. Subscribing to channels and following podcast shows of any creator that you rate really is the kindest thing you can do for anybody for free. If you haven't already read the books, the Clinical Psychologist Collective and the Aspiring Psychologist Collective, why not? Now's Your Time. Please do dive into the links on the description or in the show notes to grab your copy. If you've already read one or both of them, please do take a moment to rate and review them on Amazon or Goodreads. It would be so gratefully appreciated and helps other people browsing the site to be shown this content, which is so useful for their career and development.

(: 41:43

If you are ready to develop yourself and thinking about this being your time, you're ready for the next step, or that you just don't have the people around you to help you become the clinician that you believe you can be and would like to be, then please do check out the Aspiring Psychologist membership, which you can join for just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term. And if you're ready for something a little bit more high touch, there's the Ready to Rise programme, which you can join with me for an entire year where you get 12 one-to-ones across the year. And it really is a lovely, lovely programme to be part of, and I'm really enjoying those relationships with people. So if it is your time and you are ready for the next step and needing someone to help you to get there, then please do bear this in mind. And there's also the Free Psychology Success Guide, which you can get by going to my website, www.aspiringpsychologist.co uk.

Jingle Guy (: 42:43

If you're looking to become a psychologist with this podcast, you'll be the with Dr.