What Do Occupational Psychologists Actually Do? Organisational Psychology

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

What does an occupational or organisational psychologist do, and why is proactivity such an important psychological skill to nurture? In this episode, I am joined once again by Dr. Joe Grey, who is an organisational psychologist. We explore how psychologists can facilitate meaningful change in workplaces and why proactivity, not just in ourselves, but in teams and systems is key to long-term success and wellbeing at work. If you are curious about different branches in psychology or you want to understand how to support growth and change in organisations, this one's for you. Hi, welcome along to this Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. It's so lovely to have you here and we are welcoming back a previous guest today because the content has been really helpful and people have been reaching out to Joe and to myself. So with no further ado, let's dive in and say hello again to Joe. Hi. I just want to welcome back a lovely face who's been with us before. It's Dr. Joe Grey. Welcome back, Joe.

Dr Joe Gray (: 01:11

Thank you. So lovely to see you and be here.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:15

It really is lovely to see you and I've invited you back because there's been quite the appetite for occupational and organisational psychology since we first met. When we met you were just coming to the end of your training. You are now qualified. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr Joe Gray (: 01:33

It already feels like a long time ago, but yes, it wasn't that long ago.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:37

Yeah, life moves very quickly, doesn't it? So if people want to know more about you and what the field of organisational occupational psychology is and your experiences, they should definitely check out the previous episode, which will be linked in the show notes and in the description. But today is going to be a little bit different because I'm going to kind of hand over the reins to our expert organisational psychologist to set the context and to kind of talk us through what this episode's going to be like. So over to you, Joe.

Dr Joe Gray (: 02:11

Yeah, well thank you and thanks for the opportunity to come back and also a privilege to see your lovely face again. And I thought obviously after having some discussions with you and having had some of your listeners and viewers reach out to me following the last episode, it does seem like there's an appetite to understand a little bit more about what organisational or occupational psychologists do. They are one in the same thing. It's linked to whether you're registered with the BPS or not. So I will interchange, I'll use organisational psychologists for the purposes of today. And what I thought would be helpful is maybe just outline, just like as a clinical psychologist, you have an approach to the way you work. I thought it might be helpful to kick off maybe just highlighting there's a lot of terminology around evidence-based practitioners and I think it's a little bit of a buzzword that maybe would be helpful for you to understand a little bit more about what that means in the context of work psychology, psychology at work. So I thought I could talk a you about that and then I thought we could maybe talk about some scenarios that might crop up the kinds of work that I have been involved in or get involved in or some of my colleagues get involved in just to highlight some of the tools and the processes that we would tend to draw on if that's how. And then I would like the opportunity to tell you a little bit about my upcoming book.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:39

Oh, that sounds all amazing. And this is not brand new information because as you said, we've already discussed this, but I love that and I love that you've come with such enthusiasm for this. So we have already had a think about some case studies and we will come on to those. But please do Go ahead.

Dr Joe Gray (: 03:59

Yeah, as I said, I thought before we got into scenarios, it would be helpful just to kind set out some of the basic principles because I think there is also this kind of organisational, psycho occupational circle. What even is that and evidence-based practitioner? So I thought it'd be helpful because I would describe myself as an evidence-based practitioner and consultant. So what does that even mean? And it really is about how we approach our work and when it comes to client work, so we'll talk about these scenarios in a minute, but when a client comes with something they want help with, then I would tend to use what we call the consultancy cycle. And that essentially involves starting off having the conversation, trying to understand what their needs are and doing what we call contracting, setting some expectations about what's within our gift or scope of influence, what we can do.

(: 04:58

Some of the really basic things as an independent practitioner, how much you charge, how long do things take, the kind of processes involved, so's the contracting piece, you set off with a relationship that there's no room for ambiguity, which is really important. That's the kind of first stage. Then once we've agreed there's work to do together, we get into what we call the information gathering stage, and that's where when you hear about evidence-based practise, this is that we're gathering information from multiple sources. So if you are my client and you come to me with a problem, I'm not going to just take your word for that, sorry, I'm going to want to do a little bit more digging around, want to come in, maybe you make some observations. And again, I know you do that in a clinical sense. You would work with a client, but you're going to want to gather context.

(: 05:55

Also, draw on personal, which I have quite a bit of also looking at the academic literature, which can be really helpful, but we need to know sometimes that has its limitations depending on what the setting of the study was. We need to be careful about saying research says, but actually if there's several studies in the same setting that you find yourself in, then you can start to say, oh, okay, there's some evidence here, there's some interventions here, there's some theories here that could be relevant. And so with all of that information, you are then in a position to start making some plans, recommendations. So you formulate, get the client sign off, and then obviously start to deliver those and importantly reflect on it as you're going through report on it. And then do a thorough evaluation to show that this was worth doing, it worked. People want to see a return on investment. So that's what we describe is the consultancy cycle. Does that make sense?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 06:57

It does, and it sounds exciting and because I'm excited about lots of things, I'm like, oh yes, I'd like to do that. And I know that that is a nice trait, but also can be problematic in organisations as well. And we might well cover that later too. But yes, it sounds amazing, Joe. Thank you. Yeah,

Dr Joe Gray (: 07:18

And it is, it's a rigorous approach and sometimes people might want to cut corners. I would say it's a proven structure that works well. I'll just quickly delve into this information gathering piece because this is when you can also then start drawing on other frameworks. And I've previously used this approach that we call design thinking to organisational interventions. And again, you are thinking in different stages, so I've got my own take on this. So design thinking is all about understand what the problem is, figuring out what your options are with the evidence you've got, and then creating plans and launching them. So I've created my own version of that called the progress formula because my consultancy is called the Progress Lab, although I do a lot of work within proactive behaviour and I call it the progress formula. And it's five Ps and it's about probing the problem, problem identification, processing the possibilities, creating purposeful plans, propagating, so getting them out there by bringing people on board, so participating, getting participation, and then proofing is the evaluation piece. That's all the technical jargon out of the way, but I think that just gives you a sense of why working with a qualified occupational psychology, organisational psychologists might give you a slightly different experience to someone who's maybe not got training and background.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:54

Absolutely. This is why it's really important to work with people with the appropriate qualifications. I understand that you are not registered with the HCPC because you didn't do a psychology undergrad, but you still have the professional qualifications.

Dr Joe Gray (: 09:08

And

Dr Marianne Trent (: 09:08

So I think for me that's a bit of a learning point as well, is that people might be having the right qualification, but there may be good and important reasons why they're not registered with the HCPC. So I've learned something there too, Joe. There you go. There you go. So our first case study is looking at supporting employees during organisational change. So the context for that, a large financial services organisation is undergoing a major restructure due to a merger. The company is consolidating departments leading to role changes, job uncertainty, and potential layoffs. Employees are anxious about their future and HR is concerned about a decline in morale and performance. So let's take a look at the challenges here. There's discomfort around the change employees exhibit, low engagement and cooperation, delaying the implementation of new processes, communication issues, a lack of transparent communication leads to rumours and misinformation. And lastly, trust, perceptions, uncertainty makes employees hesitant to share ideas or collaborate effectively. Alright, so that's our first little case study or vignette. And I think these can be really helpful approaches to really help people get an understanding of what work would an occupational or organisational or psychologist do. Could you give us a brief overview of what you would do in this example?

Dr Joe Gray (: 10:44

Yeah, and I like this example for several reasons. One, it happens fairly frequently. Lots of organisations, particularly in the current sign of economic sociopolitical context as organisations merged, they have for a long time. And I've worked in organisations when I worked almost 20 years in corporate roles and experienced the merge situation several times. So I've got that firsthand experience, not altogether positive if I'm honest. So that was one, I'm always motivated by how you could do things differently. So I've got that firsthand experience and it is really difficult for employees. And when I talk employees, I'm talking everybody, really difficult for everybody and for managers, for leaders, everybody in the organisation, it can be really difficult. I've worked with various scenarios like this and it kind of depends what's needed at the time, but there's various things that you might get involved with. So strategic level if was in level, if they were really still trying to what these changes meant for the organisational design, then we might get involved at that level.

(: 12:00

And that might be again, looking at the evidence around change, change management, organisational design, and job design. So in previous work that I've done, I have looked at different frameworks. There's actually probably not surprising to you, there is so many different frameworks on what good organisational change should look like yet interestingly, some really outdated frameworks are still being used. And this is one of the frustrations sometimes in our work that it's almost like that face validity of some frameworks, even though we're kind of like that was developed in the eighties, nineties and things have changed. So there's quite a lot of change frameworks out there that get used often, but actually aren't, in my opinion, the best. And I actually did a project when I was going through my professional doctorate where I did a project that involved a change and I actually did a little light touch review of all the different change frameworks and almost tried to do, tried to get to taking the best to come up with something really good.

(: 13:16

So I do have a little adapted version and process for how you therefore help an organisational goes through some of the change. Communication tends to be one of the biggest issues in organisations when they're going through change, whether it's what they're communicating, how they're communicating, the frequency in which they're communicating or not. So communication tends to be something that we might get involved in helping the senior team communicate the vision and be able to bring people on with them. I've also done work previously where actually if the organization's looking for employees to actually participate in giving their perspectives on things, I'd really advocate. So running focus groups, trying to do some kind of appreciative inquiry. What is good about what's currently here, what would you absolutely want to keep in a new version of this organisation? So actually conducting some qualitative research, getting that participation that helps people with what we call change readiness. So you're bringing people on the journey rather than coming from the top here, this is what we're doing. And everyone goes, why would you do that? Doesn't make sense. So trying to combine that kind of bottom up and top down approach to change.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:45

That sounds really good. And it's kind of forefront in my mind anyway today because when I was eating my lunch, we are recording on the day where the news broke that WH Smith is going to be only focusing on its travel and airport shops. It's going to be disappearing from the high street and it's being bought out by someone else. And so as you were speaking, I was thinking, God, this is going to happen

Jingle Guy (: 15:12

To

Dr Marianne Trent (: 15:12

So many people across the UK that are currently working for WH Smith and presumably will be two P into this new organisation. But actually the WH Smith brand has been on the high street for over 200 years. It's very embedded in UK culture and that will run through the organisation. And they made it clear to say that actually the shops are still doing well, it's just that they really want to see themselves pivoting to be a travel retail brand, which is not the same as on high street presence, is it?

Dr Joe Gray (: 15:54

Yeah. And I guess they're evolving to the needs of the consumer and to their stakeholders to a certain degree. And some of these changes can be difficult for people to process. So one of the other things that I do a lot actually is organisations going through significant changes is more of a learning and development type initiative. So whether that be helping at an individual level, build some resilience, build some coping strategies for navigating change, because change is tricky. Even I'm someone who really leans into it. But some things, particularly if you really enjoy your job and the way things are structured and the colleagues, that feels like a loss if that's going to change. So it can create a real emotional response and it's difficult for people. So we do a lot of work at that individual level, but also helping leaders and managers be able to support their teams in navigating some of those changes is really important.

(: 17:01

Really. And actually, I mean one thing I always say when I'm working with leaders and managers is you've also got to put your own oxygen mask on first because you are also going through this change and you are supporting others, you're trying to be the best manager you can be. You are soaking up some of that emotional contagion and you are trying to remain positive and motivated and driven when you yourself are experiencing some of those feelings. So it can be really tricky time, but there are, again, lots of things, lots of strategies that we can encourage people to think about and work out what's going to give them some energy and what's going to deplete it, that kind of thing.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 17:44

And I guess it's thinking about what the primary emotions are when we a secondary activity like anger or fear, there'll be a very good and important reason that probably comes first. And it seems like what you do as an occupational organisational psychologist is to kind of support everybody so that it feels less us versus them and we're in it together and we're trying to find a way that honours and respects everybody in this organisation, not just those at the top.

Dr Joe Gray (: 18:16

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that's what a lot of the work I would do reminds the senior leaders and decision makers that actually if you want to create a kind of culture of change, you need to bring people on the journey with you. People do not like feeling done to. And that's why then this whole participation and involving whether it's focus groups, improvement groups, getting people and listening to them and being honest about what you can respond to and being honest about what you can and fulfilling that. So again, communication comes back. It's at the heart of it. And I always say when the communication breaks down, unfortunately change you've got. You've got to have a problem. Yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:00

Yeah, I love that. Thank you Joe. Let's go on to our second case study. Our second one is addressing issues around employee burnout. The context is an HR professional in a pharmaceutical company notices a significant rise in absenteeism and turnover among employees in operations, employee assistance programme EAP data reveals an increase in stress-related claims, employees report feeling overwhelmed, emotionally drained and disengaged. Our challenges are reduced. Productivity staff are mentally and physically exhausted, affecting their performance, increased turnover, this is driving higher attrition, putting additional strain on remaining employees and low morale employees feel undervalued and unsupported, creating a negative workplace atmosphere. Okay, so what are you doing in that case?

Dr Joe Gray (: 20:03

And again, sadly this is not unusual. We are seeing more of this. Interestingly, when I did my master's dissertation in 2018, my topic was around wellbeing at work. And at that time burnout was, I think it was the second or even third reason for long-term sickness, absence, musculoskeletal was absolutely by quite a difference at the top. That has changed in the UK in the last couple of years with burnout now at the top. So there is obviously some things going on, there are things going on that are contributing to that, and this is a reality for people. Just so we're really clear on burnout when we talk about burnout within a work context, it's that it's exhaustion and by being exhausted, we're not thinking as well. So cognitive impairment, when I know what I'm like on sleep deprivation, emotionally unstable, so emotional impairment and actually that combination starts to make you withdraw distance.

(: 21:16

We become more cynical, apathetic, that kind of thing. And again, you probably see some of this in your work, but there is some overlaps and as I said, we are seeing more of it particularly in roles where there are what feels like intolerable demands. I'm really interested in this one today. I was at a fabulous workshop, well conference last week of a conference like no other. It was in Holland and it was celebrating a theory that we use a lot in workplace wellbeing called the Job Demands resources theory. It was inspired by Eva Dema and built on with her supervisor at the time, Wilma Ley, Arnold Backer. These are really big names in organisational psychology. And that theory was developed 25 years ago. So we were at this festival last week celebrating the knowledge that has developed over the last 25 years relating to this theory.

(: 22:22

And when I talk to people about it, the best way to describe it is imagine you've got a set of weighing scales and you've got all of your job demands weighing you down on one side, workload, pressure colleagues, all that kind of thing. Relationships, if they're not going well, although these are all demands. And then the other side, you've got your resources and the idea. So when we have good relationships with our colleagues, we've got support from our line managers and leaders, all that enriching stuff. The idea is if we've got it in equilibrium, we're going to be feeling okay. If the demands are just completely outweighing the resources available, we're going to be on that one way ticket to burnout. Interestingly, if we've got too many resources and they're outweighing the demands, that's when we actually get a bit bored. So bored there is a balance to achieve.

(: 23:19

So that's a really good theory to try and draw on to so often use that to try and understand what are people's demands and what are the resources and is there a misbalance here? What was also really inspiring, and I can't give too much on this, I haven't done enough analysis of it since last week. So Wilma, who decades and decades of experience in stress burnout at work has recently created a new diagnostic for measuring burnout. It's called the burnout. I think it's short for bat. So burnout assessment tool. So that's a new diagnostic that actually again, recognising that the original burnout instrument was developed, developed decades ago, there's some limitations to it. So there's a new burnout assessment tool that I would certainly look to use as part of the information gathering. I draw on the job designs to try and get to what's going on here, then start to do qualitative interviews, try and find out what's driving the excessive demands potentially.

(: 24:26

And once we have that information, then it's about trying to design interventions. And when it comes to wellbeing interventions, I would always take the participation route for wellbeing interventions. People who work in the organisation know what they need. So getting them. And there was another brilliant psychologist who I'm sadly is no longer with us, Corina Nielsen from Sheffield University who did brilliant work around wellbeing interventions using participative techniques, getting people on board. So that would be something that I would also definitely advocate and then start to look at some of the job design. So again, another academic hero for me is Sharon Parker. Her work on practical behaviour is one of my inspirations, but she's also done a lot of work in work design and has a really great framework called Smart Work design. And it really brings in how are we making creating healthy, sustainable jobs. So these are just some of the things I tap into.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:45

Amazing. And it's really lovely to hear about the people that inspired you, but let's not forget that for many people, Dr. Joe Grey was going to be, is going to be a real inspiration. And the first occupational and organisational psychologist they will have heard of might well have been from this podcast, it might be this one they're watching right now. And there might be organisations themselves watching this thinking, why do we need an organisational psychologist? And you are demonstrating beautifully why they need that occupational or organisational psychologist. So I think you are certainly one to watch as well. Joe, before we think about exactly why with your book that's coming out, shall we have a look at our third case study? So supporting organisations to promote a speak up culture. What's the context? The leadership team in a mid-sized software development company known for its cutting edge products has noticed that employees are increasingly reluctant to speak up in meetings, share ideas or raise concerns. Leadership has observed that innovation and problem solving have slowed and there's growing frustration among managers who feel disconnected from their teams. What are the challenges? We've got disengagement among employees leading to a lack of accountability and impacting on team dynamics. And the organisation is at risk of losing its competitive edge and impact on future sustainability. Okay, Joe, this last one is over to you.

Dr Joe Gray (: 27:23

And this one really speaks to my area of expertise, proactive behaviour at work. So speaking up is what we describe as a proactive behaviour, proactive behaviour, self initiated in order to change the current situation or the environment. So if you think about speaking up, I'm speaking up because I want something to change or if we're speaking up and it's around innovation, I'm speaking up, I want to create something. So that idea of creating the speak up culture, it can be to highlight issues within an organisation. You might speak up if there's some bad behaviour being experienced. That's one form of speaking up. But speaking up around improvement, ideas, innovation, all that kind, that's also speaking up type of behaviour. So speaking up comes in various different guises and I guess it's important if you are because again, a lot of buzzwords about oh yeah, we want to create a speak up culture, be really clear what is it?

(: 28:24

Why is that important and why are you trying to do it? And if you are trying to create a speak up culture, then you absolutely need to make sure that the environment is safe for people to speak up. So this really does speak to a lot of my own work. So a bit of some shameless plugging here. So one of the things I have designed, so I've got a new website which is called powering proactivity com, and I've created what's called the proactivity pulse. And that is a short diagnostic that asks questions to almost determine which proactive behaviours are in evidence or not within your organisation. And there's kind of six key proactive behaviours that I've identified that organisations tend to appreciate value speaking up will be one of them. So I would probably be asking some of those questions from the speaker probably to be fair, I'd probably ask someone to do the whole pulse.

(: 29:23

And I've designed it in a way that actually you could get a whole team to do it and then I can aggregate and come back with scores for the whole organisation. So there's that option and that would then pinpoint, yeah, okay, actually speaking up maybe and innovative behaviour causing that. So once we've got the diagnosis, then it's trying to understand what might be driving it. And that's where my book is premised on the proactive work design framework. So it's a nine dimensional model using the word proactive, and there are nine factors to consider. And the idea is that if you get those nine based on the evidence that's out there, if you were doing those nine things, the chances are you're going to have a pretty empowered workforce. But if some of those are lacking, then it can have a real impact on certain proactive behaviours. So I'm going to stick with speaking up. Psychological safety is absolutely a prerequisite of a speak up culture. So if people do not feel safe to speak up, guess what? They're going to be silent. So imagine you've probably heard there's quite a lot of psychological safety gets banded around quite a bit. Again, if you're on LinkedIn quite often this idea of psychological safety and it really is premised on the idea that the environment feels safe for people that they're not going to get told off or shut down or

(: 30:59

Reprimanded.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 30:59

You see that in when they have wellbeing employee surveys, don't they? And even in the NHS every year there'll be a satisfaction survey, but then there'll also be the meme of people being escorted out by security for really sharing what they think. And so it is exactly like you say, it doesn't feel psychologically safe to actually be honest about what it's like to work there.

Dr Joe Gray (: 31:25

And I think there's a psychological safety and and are people going to do something with that? Sometimes I speak up, I'm not being heard. So there's also the idea of how we can create influence, help people to develop the skill to be able to be heard in a way that influences others and allows them to be heard. So yes, so there's a few chapters in the book that I would say are very much linked to speaking up, but the idea and the way the book is premised is that you do that diagnostic and the things that you are already doing well, great. Don't worry too much about those. Let's try and work on the areas that probably need a little bit of attention. The other thing I have also recently worked on is I've created a kind of coaching framework around how to build confidence in speaking up.

(: 32:23

And I've used, again, sorry, I'm a bit overuse of acronyms, but it's called the safe framework. And the S is for psychological safety. So a little bit of a stretch ps, but psychological safety for safety, authenticity, fairness and emotions. And the idea there is one, we need to be psychologically safe, I just explained. But also to speak up, you need to feel authentic, you need to feel like you can be authentic. And again, sometimes in organisations there are social norms, expectations, and people don't feel like they can be authentic and you need to feel authentic and true to your values to be able to speak up on things that are important to you. So it's the authenticity piece is about helping individuals build confidence to be true to themselves. So that's the kind of authenticity one. The fairness considerations. A lot of people speak up when things are unfair.

(: 33:30

We tend to have somehow, some of us have higher fairness barometers than others, but most people will respond when they see something. It's unfair. So it's about bringing to their attention, if this feels unfair, how can you therefore communicate that in a way that's authentic to you that people will be willing to listen to. And then the last one is recognising that sometimes our emotions can get in the way of being heard. So how can we bring some kind of emotional regulation so that again, we can be heard without people dismissing us? So those are techniques that you can coach someone to help build those areas of strength to give them the power and confidence to speak up.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:22

Amazing. And I do, I love all your acronyms, I love them and it makes 'em easy to remember, doesn't it? But also to kind of use to implement because you can stick them up and then they catch you out and like, oh yeah, you do that. I should do that, use that. And I liked that you had your own five Ps model as well because it's a CBT thing, isn't it? But now it obviously is an occupational psychologist thing as well. So we are sold on this as being really helpful. We are sold on you, and so we should be definitely checking out your brand new book, baby, shouldn't we? Joe, tell us about your new book.

Dr Joe Gray (: 35:00

So I've obviously been alluding to it already, so it's called Powering Workplace Proactivity, how to Create Future Focused, change Oriented Culture. And it's recognising that proactive behaviours can be really helpful for organisations, but individuals may not always feel that the environment that within their organisation is enabling or stimulating that behaviour. So I'm a big advocate of this kind of fix the environment before you try to fix the person. I think sometimes within psychology, generally we have a tendency to want to fix the person first and foremost. And I think actually if the environment is right, then actually that might enable the person to thrive. They don't need fixing. So this idea of let's fix the environment first and then if there will still be individuals who for one reason or another lack confidence, lack the self-esteem and self-efficacy, you need to be proactive and might need a bit more handholding, but let's just get the environment right first. And so that is what the book is about, creating the environment, the culture before we start just fixing people.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 36:18

And that really made me think about comparing and contrasting, for example, the NHS versus YouTube and Google as an employer. So I went to the YouTube offices earlier this year and they have a free canteen. You might know this already, Joe, but they have a free canteen that's like buffet, amazing salads, soups, kind of little Brazilian tapas and burgers and fresh pastas and deliciousness, all the drinks, all the puddings, all of that. And it's free for all employees if they're on site that day. They also have a rooftop terrace with barista made coffees with an ice cream fridge. All of that's free. You get access to the gym there. You also get massage credits that you get to use. You get so many massage credits a year, and then you can also buy extra massages. And I just think, you know what, that's a pretty cool culture.

(: 37:18

Obviously people will still choose to leave at some point in the future of course, but I think it's about for me, valuing your employees. Whereas when I was in the NHSI once got a pair of fluffy socks as my Christmas bonus with one chocolate gold coin. And I actually said at the time, I would've rather had the two pounds it cost them to buy. And had they consulted us on what we wanted on our bonus, I don't think anybody would've said I'd like a pair of fluffy socks and a chocolate coin. So I think I know that Google and NHS are not really comparable as an organisation, but that's what resonated with me when I heard you say what you said.

Dr Joe Gray (: 38:02

Yeah, and I think it's also about the job design. So the perks around the edge is lovely, but it's about giving people opportunities to have meaningful work regardless of what that role is. But they do feel that they're being heard and I'm contributing. So when we talk to people around when they feel empowered, when they're being proactive and it's wanted and valued, then they're pride, joy, energised. So we are actually creating on that scale, as I talked about earlier. Yeah, proactive behaviour when welcomed can be a resource, can also be a demand. Because if we're in an environment where it's not welcome and I'm pushing, it's like I'm hitting brick wall every time I come up with something that becomes a demand and that can actually lead people to burnout and leave. So there's a double-edged proactivity itself is double-edged, but when the environment is right for it and individuals can exercise it, that's when the magic happens. So that's what I want to do. I want to create workplaces where people feel they can go to work, contribute, feel like they're having meaningful experiences and someone's valuing it. And as a result, the organization's doing well. That's my aim.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:25

You are all thriving together. You are earning money in a way that feels like it's authentic to you, it makes you feel good, you've got joy in delivering that service that makes it feel like what you are delivering is being appreciated by everyone, by the clients, but also by the people around you. They're not undermining you, they're not jealous of you, they're not sniping at you. They actually feels like a joy to come to work, and that is not impossible. It is possible for that to be the case and not just in a self-employed situation. That's not the only environment where you can love your job.

Dr Joe Gray (: 40:05

Yes,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:05

Absolutely. A hundred percent. Amazing. So who is the ideal client for your book, do you think, Joe?

Dr Joe Gray (: 40:12

So if you're an HR professional, for sure, if you are anyone, hr, professional, organisational development consultants, anyone who's in an organisation and has an influence over how work is designed in the organisation, designed leaders at any level, managers, anyone who has an influence in creating the culture, which so do individuals, but it's leaders, managers, even coaches because quite a lot of the interventions. So within the book I've got some little tools and some resources and there are some coaching interventions. So actually even if you're a coach who's interested in helping people and organisations, leaders create those environments, then it could also be helpful for them.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:00

Perfect. And we are releasing this episode at the point where this is a brand new book, baby, you can go out and buy this. Now, is Amazon the best place to go or is it available in other places too? It's

Dr Joe Gray (: 41:14

Available in all good outlets. If you go to my website powering proactivity.com for a limited time, there is a discount code that you can use at route. So the publishers are Route socom, you can go there and if you want to benefit from the discount, go via my website, it's on Amazon, it's on Waterstones, and hopefully other reputable book outlets.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:42

Lovely. Thank you so much Joe. And I believe that code is currently available until the end of June, 2025, but there might well be future discount codes available. So please do go and check out Joe's website. Joe, where's the best place for people to be able to connect with you, follow you, engage with your work?

Dr Joe Gray (: 42:00

So LinkedIn I would say, although I've got an Instagram page for powering productivity, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Joe Grey, but there's also Powering Proactivity has a LinkedIn page and a Instagram page. So yeah, you'll find me one confusing thing is on the book, it's Joanne Grey to friends, I'm Joe Grey with an e. I know that's confusing, but so if you can't find me, it's Joanne Grey. It might be Joe Grey or vice versa.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:31

Joe, thank you so much for your time today and coming back to speak with us. Wishing you the very best of luck with your brand new book, baby. Please do stay in contact and hope it really sores for you.

Dr Joe Gray (: 42:43

Thank you so much and thanks for having me. It's been a joy and pleasure.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:47

Oh, it really has been. Hope you have a lovely rest of your day. Thank you, Joe.

Dr Joe Gray (: 42:51

Thank you.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:51

Oh, what an absolute treat it was to speak to Joe. Please, if you do think that you would find her work interesting, please do buy her brand new book, which is available right now. There will be details in the show notes and in the description for this video if you're watching on YouTube. I love it when you tell me how helpful this content is. If there are past episodes that you would like to see broadened or delved into in more depth, please do let me know. Reach out to me on my social media where I am, Dr. Marianne Trent, everywhere. Drop me a comment or a question on any YouTube video. If you're listening on Spotify, you can do q and a questions on there too. If you find the content helpful, you can rate and review on Apple podcasts. Please do. And wherever you listen to your podcast, please do follow the show. It really is the kindest thing you can do for any podcaster or creator. If you love conversations about psychology, please do come and join my free psychology group on Facebook, which is called The Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr. Marianne Trent. And there's a new video every week on Fridays at around 9:00 AM which is called Marianne's Motivation and Mindset. You can also grab your free psychology success guide by going along to my website, www.aspiringpsychologist.co.uk.

Jingle Guy (: 44:11

If you're to become a psychologist, then let this podcast.