Retraining, Dyslexia, Thesis Hiccups & Making a Difference with Challenging Populations, with Dr Deborah Kingston

(: 00:28

Hi, welcome along to the aspiring psychologist podcast. Thank you for being part of my world. Today I am joined by a lovely lady by the name of Dr. Deborah Kingston, and we first connected on social media and it feels like we spent the last couple of years during the pandemic chatting and cheering each other on from the sidelines. But today was the first time I've been able to speak with her you know, one to one actually in real time. And so it felt like a real treat. I really wanted to invite Deborah on for a variety of reasons, because I think she has so much that so many of you will be able to resonate and connect with for a variety of reasons, actually. So we are talking about coming to psychology slightly later than average. We are talking about dyslexia. We are talking about retraining, talking about working in tricky areas managing tricky situations, mental ill health you know, striving for being a psychologist whilst being a parent. We've got it all covered. It's a punchy interesting engaging episode. And I hope you'll find it so useful. I will catch you on the other side.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 01:54

Hi, welcome along to this very special episode where I am joined by doctor Deborah Kingston. Deborah, thank you for joining us.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 01:56

You're welcome.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 01:57

So you are a fellow clinical psychologist but your route to clinical psychology may not look like, you know, a typical textbook assistant, you know, bit of a master's get onto doctorate and done. Would you like to tell people a little bit about your history?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 02:15

So when I was seven, well, let's start. I left school. Didn't have a GCSE, no qualifications whatsoever I was told. I was a little bit thick and incapable of learning. I think that's what one of the teachers said to my parents on a parents evening. So I decided to join the Royal Forces. That was my escapism from home and a life that really wasn't gonna offer much opportunities. So I joined the RF age 17 and did quite well, but it was during my RF career. I started to get educated. And I was, I worked really hard in the RF and it was quite male dominated, as you might imagine. And it was really hard to kind of get ahead in a little bit of a way, but I still, I did really well. I got promoted, but I did accountancy. So I was an accountant.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 03:03

I dealt with a lot of numbers. I dealt with a lot of people. I dealt with a lot of problems cuz drinking in the RF is a problem. People would always come to our boss and I'd be like the, the gatekeeper to the boss to go talk to 'em. So I really had this flare for chatting to people which I quite liked. And then in 2003, I became quite poorly with my mental health, you know, severely being bullied by a senior rank who, you know, a lot of gang-up and stuff. And the medics just wanted to medicate me and said antidepressants for the rest of your life. You know, there you go. And it was during my time off sick, I helped one of my friends do a psychology module for their social work course. And it just felt like this was an easy thing to be doing for her and she'd failed it.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 03:52

So she'd come say I failed this module. I need to be doing it, I'm really struggling. And I was like, oh yeah, but you know, this one says this and this is really exciting. And this is really good. And it was like a real flare, and I had been doing a business degree. So I was only two modules short of my a BA in business studies. And it was, then she said, have you thought about doing psychology? So I called the open university, which again is not a conventional route for clinical psychologists. And I joined the OU (open university) and I did my first course. And luckily for me, there was a lady that had left Cambridge University and moved up to the north of Scotland and had a little freehold and just wanted to do a little bit of teaching on my second essay. She wrote at the bottom, come see me after lecture.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 04:35

“This subject's not for you”. I was like, she told me in that lecture, I was amazing last time. And I was like really conflicted. And then when I went to see you at the end, she's like, no, no, Deborah, I don't need to see your really good lecture again. And I'm like, right, whoa, you're confusing me now. And I pulled these essays out and I said, cuz you wrote this. And she's like, oh my God, why don't you just tell me you were dyslexic and we could have sorted something out. And I'm like, do what? And she's like, how is nobody pointed out to you that you are severely dyslexic? And I was like, well, they just said I was sick. And she's like, no, you can clearly tell by your verbal ability, you know your stuff, but your rentability is just so poor. We just need to get you some software and some techniques and that'll make a difference.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 05:24

And I went from basically going from a thank you for coming degree to 5% off a first that's all I was at the end. And I got a high two-one, really pleased with it. To be honest, I didn't even know then that I was gonna become a clinical psychologist because every single time we went to an open university thing, they said to you, if you're over 30, you're too old to become a clinical psychologist. If you're just doing your degree now, and you're over 30 rule out becoming a clinical psychologist, cause clinical psychologist, you go a-levels, you do a degree, you do some work experience. You do a master's, you get an assistant post, you go on the doctorate course, that's your route. And I was like, oh God, I'm not just over 30 I'm well in. Okay. Anyway, then I started working at admin job in the NHS, which I turned clinical a little bit.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 06:23

I did some audits. I did some clinical interviewing for the audit and then I published the audit because I wanted to try. And then somebody said, come get an assistant job, but you need to like have some experience. And then I took the risk and left my full time paid job with a mortgage and two kids and jumped, shipped to a six month fixed term assistant psychology post with less money. And I thought I've gotta do it, gotta do it, gotta do it. And then I started that job in chronic fatigue services, a brilliant psychologist headed up that service, but it was only six months. She said we can't do anymore after that. And then I got another job in forensics in the same trust, but again, only six months. And it was there. I really studied to apply for the doctorate. You know, oh, I missed a bit, I did an honorary assistant psychology job in the evening after my admin job all day in a learning disability unit with challenging behavior.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 07:24

And the year before my supervisor had asked me to do the doctorate form and I had been like, okay, I'll do it. And then when I went to my next supervision with him, he said, where is it? I said, it went in the shredder and it was the most cathartic experience ever because I could see the gaps that I didn't have, which is what then made, he said, take the risk, go fix them. So I did that. And then yeah, I applied for the doctorate thinking, go for feedback. Cause nobody gets on the doctorate first time or it's quite rare. The Trent course is quite grueling, like really grueling. And I thought, I'll go for the feedback, but I made sure I studied every night in prep for that interview, just so I could give myself the best shot. And that year they dropped the places from 20 to 19 and I was first reserved for place. And that's how I got that's from go from the RF, through different things and onto the doctorate.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 08:23

That's incredible Deborah and actually a real few magic moments there. You know, the moment of discovering accidentally to do psychology degree, and then being told you're dyslexic and know it was up potentially lots of things suddenly might have added up and it came together that really gave you important answers. And then of course I think telling you that you can't do something , I think it's probably similar to telling me that you can't do something. So it's really difficult. It's like, well, “I'll show you!”

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 09:00

Yeah, you really do it. I really try and being, cause you know, also on the doctorate course, I'm the only person on the course to actually submit two full thesis because, and they failed my thesis on a technicality of one word, which my tutor had actually changed my research question with me and they failed me on that question. And they said I had to do a brand new thesis from scratch and they thought I'd resign. They thought I'd come off the call because I wouldn't have had time to do another thesis. And I turned that thesis around in at 13 months from idea to ethics. Well, I didn't need ethics. Still had to put it through 13 months, start to finish. And I went up to like nearly 15 stone. I was very heavy. You know, my husband was away in the RF. He did the Libya campaign. He's done Afghanistan in that time. You know, he did Iraq prior to that. So the four years I was on my doctorate course, I think he probably only spent about 200 days of that four years at home in that four years. And I had a child to look after, my eldest had moved out and it was a difficult time, but is well worth it for what I do now!

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 10:14

That said, it really shows what we're doing to our aspiring psychologist. Doesn't it, you know, because we are trying to live lives at the same time. And it is a grueling process. You know, there is many different plates that you were having to spin at that time. You know, you had the additional I was gonna say complication, but let's say, let's say additional joy of being a mother.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 10:39

You know, oh no, seriously. It felt like a complication at the time. Cause nobody else on my course had, well, there was only one other lady that had children. And she also found being a mother, quite challenging, you know, the rest, not even all of them were married, you know? They didn't have that juggling act. And I think we are, you know, sometimes when you see these assistants desperate to get on a course and celebrating, they've got on a course. Like I remember cheering when I got on a course and when I reflected back on it the other week, I was like, really? I don't think I'd be cheering if I knew what I was in for it is. And some courses I've got to say are really better than others and more diverse than others. My course was not, it was really challenging, but they taught me a lot. Although trying to tell me that I would no longer be dyslexic after I finished the course, you know…

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 11:34

They know something we don't about Dyslexia…

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 11:35

Exactly. Apparently I was gonna do that much reading and writing. I would cure myself, my dyslexia.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 11:41

Yeah. Very so interesting. Again, a lot of academic psychologists that teach clinical psychologists are very different and I think clinical psychologists then go off to sit split different domains, you know, some go neuroscience, some go academic, you know, I think I was very much, I wanted to help people. I wanted to help overcome trauma. Mm-Hmm because, you know, for me being a child, I did a lot of trauma. I had a lot of trauma in the RF and I just felt that I could, I could really understand people, not from a book, not from a manual, but from actually from some lived experience but from just being in services.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 12:25

There's lots of other, there's lots of evidence to suggest isn't there, that people who've had developmental trauma and more likely to end up in an armed force or in prison as well, you know?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 12:40

Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you think about the ACEs, that's very much so, but the military does attract people with a lot of developmental trauma, gives them a real family. Yeah. You know, it gives them a purpose and a structure and boundaries and rules, you know, like I'm early for everything. Like literally everything. I can't be on time because that's late. Okay. Cause the military teacher that if you're going do something you're five minutes early, cuz that's then means you're on.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 13:07

Yeah. You know, oh Deborah. Even getting ready for this podcast. I confirmed with you. Didn't I as I was about to tweak my lunch and you were like, yep, I'm just making a cup of tea, then I'll be ready. And I was like, oh my God, I’m still eating

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 13:20

But that's how it goes. That's just, you know, I've been out the military a lot longer now than I was in it. You know, I left in 2006, but I still have some of those ways. I like, if I tell someone I'm gonna do something, I do it. I never break a promise. Okay. I work way too hard cuz in the military there's a really hard work ethic. So I do know that, but sometimes that can also be the clinical psychology world. They're not used to somebody like me. And again, if you're a little bit different, regardless, whether it's sexuality, whether it's color of skin, whether it's class and background, you know, if you are a bit different, you're gonna really feel the weight of the clinical psychology course sometimes because it can feel like you don't fit in that you don't belong there. And I was very prickly on my doctoral course. I'm not gonna lie. I think I probably annoyed a few people at times cuz I constantly ask questions. Cause I love verbal feedback. like I really learn through people talking to me and listening

Dr. Marianne Trent(: 14:32

Its that connection as well. Isn't it often in teaching, you don't have the same connection. It's not personal.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 14:39

Yeah. And I just needed it. But I think a lot of people wanted to be silent and thinkers. Every time I ask a question or just get in and get finished early to go to the pub or just go and lay and do nothing. I

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 14:52

Think so there was probably some of them too.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 14:55

That's not me. I'm always like what? I need to learn this more. And I still like, I do so much CPD now, like I'm always on a CPD course. Like my husband's class are the same. What another course? Why do we need another course? And I'm like, I need to know more. Cause what if I don't know enough? What if I don't know it? What if a client sits in front of me, I don't know what to do.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 15:17

What's your advice to our audience? If they are feeling that imposter syndrome, they've got that worry that, that someone's gonna ask them something that they don't know.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 15:28

Well, do you know what? When, when I was on my third year of my course, my supervisor had said, asked me a question that there was no answer to. And I really, really struggled to say the words. I don't know. They literally choked in my throat as I was scrambling in my head for the answer. And I couldn't just say to her, look, I don't know, I'll go check and I'll come back and see you. I literally froze on the spot in that imposter syndrome moment. And like she's found me out kind of thing. And she's like, Deborah, I've asked you a question. There is no answer to, I was like, why would you do that? She said, because you have to learn to say, I don't know mm-hmm and I don't know can be okay. And I was like, what, what do you mean? I dunno can be okay. We're meant to know the answer. This is what they're paying us for. Well, and she's like, no, they're not. They're paying for you to then go away and think about it, come back to them. And I was like, oh, so that's now when I don't know something and somebody asked me something, I genuinely dunno. It's took me a long time to say I can just say I dunno.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 16:44

Okay. So you can sit with that now and be okay?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 16:49

Yes, but if people can get there quicker with that saves them a whole host of worry and hassle.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 16:54

Yeah. So where did you end up working when you first qualified then? What did you do?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 16:58

I got a job at Lincoln prison and I absolutely loved it. I was finishing my thesis, so I didn't quite have my doctor title or the banding or the pay, but that's okay. I absolutely loved it. I went in there and the guys at Lincoln prison were amazing. I set up a trauma informed work group for both prisoners in the vulnerable prison wing. And then the other wings, cuz you had to keep them very separate. And initially the prison thought we'd only do a group for one type of population, not for both. And I just felt that both populations really needed it because the one thing we found, like you said earlier, the majority of people that end up in prison have had developmental trauma. But the one biggest thing I found through working there was nobody recognized those guys as victims.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 17:57

It was heartbreaking. Some of their stories, Marianne were really, really heartbreaking in terms of the abuse. They suffered, the neglect they suffered and the fact that nobody cared until they pitched up in the criminal justice system. And then there was more, a big stick approach than a trauma led approach. And it was through group work and eventually EMDR that the guys I worked with really started to know it was their own victim status and how they needed that to heal. But in doing that, they noticed that they created victims and you know, and the prisons put on these victim empathy courses that supposedly teach them how to have victim empathy. But unless they truly get to the roots of their own trauma, they have to defend the fact that they've got victims because it'll just make them feel more vulnerable.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 18:59

Then they started to spread me a bit thin. So I had to then cover Lincoln and not noting and open for Lincoln noting and Noy camp, the open prison. And then it was Lincoln noting and NACY camp and Morton hall immigration removal center. And that again was quite harrowing seeing people dragged in because they had failed to complete a form in time or were deemed to be a risk. Now yes, if you commit a crime over a certain length of time, apparently you then aren't likely to be deported. However, there was a lot of people in that immigration center who had not committed a crime who had come here for what they thought was a better life. Their journeys were terribly, terribly distressing from leaving their country of origin and their family at home and being almost imprisoned because they tried to find work and do the right thing.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 19:57

And even some of the issues like the idea of sending somebody back to a country that was homosexual, which would led to their death, you know, I just thought, no, wow, no, that's not a society. So I felt like I had a real fight for them. So, you know, I wanted to get their voice heard within that system, within that home office system. So again, in that place, I did teachings for home office staff around trauma and the impact of trauma, cuz they'd say, well, they didn't tell me that on the first I didn't hear that. They haven't told me that. So therefore they're lying to you. And I'm like, why do you think they might not been able to tell you about their most traumatic experience? So we do some work on what was your interview skill? Like what, how did you present to them?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 20:42

Did you make them feel safe in the room? And they're like, it's not my job to make them feel safe. Some of the immigration officers were brilliant and they'd get all that information. It's the same as prison officers, prison officers would say prisoners were needy and manipulative and they always choose the soft officers. And I said, and I remember saying to an officer one day said, am I being manipulate? And I said, who would you go to on this wing right now, if you had a problem, which officer would you select? And he named them and I said, why is your behavior then not deemed to be manipulative, but their behavior is when they choose the same officers. And so I did a lot of psychoeducation around that. I thought that was really important. And it was a shame because the prison employed somebody to come in and be the boss of therapy services who had no therapy experience. Wasn't a clinical psychologist, didn't meet this essential criteria and then called me and told me I was to stop working with patients therapeutically and do desktop analysis. And at that point I said, no, if I'm not gonna see and help patients I'm leaving. And that's why I then became private.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 21:57

OK. Oh, it's very difficult. Isn't it? Because I know you know, this work matters deeply to us as clinicians and humans. And when we feel we can get that human connection and make a difference, even for one person it's incredible and it's powerful and it keeps you coming back to work even on tricky days. But once someone gets in the way of, you know, it's, I think it's that idea of moral injury, isn't it? And I'm not willing to work in that way. And that's actually more challenging to me to watch that go by and have, and not be able to do anything that becomes a trauma in itself for ourselves. If we stay and you are then left with the decision of leaving a job that you love and a client population that you love very much because you can't be party to it anymore.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 22:47

I can't just go in and help people. You know, the amount of times I would go on a wing walk through and just stand with somebody and ground them. You know, I went to Nottingham once and I changed days just because I had to. And as I walked in, I heard that one of my patients was on the net thing and they were calling in the national team to get him off. And I wandered up to the wing.

Dr. Marianne Trent(: 23:08

Can you tell us what that means? Paint, there's a picture of on what on the net thing?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 23:13

In each prison you go up the steps. There's a net between each floor. So somebody can't fall and land on the bottom floor. So they can't basically commit suicide, but they're on this netting and it's quite, it's still a little bit dangerous and they're literally suspended in the air on this net. So if you fall from a trape rope onto some net, you'd normally be able to roll off and get off in the prison. You can't really do that. You have to then get yourself to the edge and you have to climb off. But prison officers, because it's dangerous, won't go on and get you so that they won't go get locked up. They won't go back to their room. They won't do what they're being told to do. So the prison officers have been doing this merry dance for a few hours. Now he's been on the netting. He's not coming off. He's right in the center. And I, so I go in and he sees my faces of say, no, it's not necessarily an of suicidal intent. It's an act of, I really don't want to be around anyone. I don't want to do what you want me to do.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 24:10

No, I don't wanna do it. But also he knew he would get a kick in because the national team would come in and manhandle him off there and put him down to segregation. So he'd get to be alone in a room and segregation away from all of it. So it was functional in the fact

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 24:26

Oh, it's like basic behavior in nurseries, isn't it? You know, it makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 24:30

He just needed to be alone, it was too busy for him. It was too much. He was overwhelmed. He was also due to be released. He'd been in prison on and off since he was like 17, he's never really known the outside world. He was bloody petrified, just dysregulated in every area. Yeah.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 24:50

So I go on and I say to the prison officer, look, I'm gonna get him off here. And they laughed. And like, he never comes off. This is the process. And I say, no, I'm gonna get him off. But when I get him off, we're going into the little office and I'm gonna just talk to him and that's not protocol. He has to come off. No, I'm like, no, but neither is me getting him off protocol. Let's just try and do something different. Let's see if we can avoid him getting the kicking, avoid him going into segregation. Let's see if I can get him, if we can reregulate him in. We can get him to choose a different behavior. That's more adaptive. Let's go with that idea.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 25:26

So literally I walked over and I stood there and he is like, Deb's, Deb's what you're doing here. Deb's what you're doing here. And I was like, I've come to get you off the net. He's like, but they'll give me a kicking Debs. If I come off those prison officer or jump on straight away, I said, no, I've got the assurance. That's not gonna happen. Me and you were gonna go to the office and we're gonna have an hour just in the office. And he's like, you promise if I come off the net, I'm having an hour. And I was like promise. And literally I had to get him even before he could get himself over the bars. I got him just to know, was the feel of the netting on his hands to know was the feel of himself there to notice the connection with me and then to come and hold onto the bars and notice how cold they felt on his hands and just ground himself.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 26:05

Before he then flipped himself back over the bars, onto the landing to then walk down the landing to go in a little office. And he sat in that little office on the floor, like he was a five year old boy petrified saying, they're gonna burst through the doors, Deb. So they don't want you to get hurt Deb. So you stay away from me just in case they burst through the doors. And I can't have you hurt. And I'm like, they're not coming in. It's fine. I said about what's this all about? And he said my girlfriend wrote a letter in and she's breaking up with me and I'm due out next week. I didn't know what else to do. So I thought, well, they'll keep me in if I create havoc, I'll get extra days. And then I might stay in. And I'm like, are you really that scared? So we then were able to process why he was really that scared of being released and what stepping stones did we need to put in place for him to be released safely. So it was a really, it was a beautiful thing, but, and I do miss not being able to go do that because those clients, aren't gonna walk through the door in my private practice, which is a shame.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 27:09

But I bet you still live in their hearts. And that's the incredible powerful.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 27:14

Well, they wrote to me, some of them wrote to me you know, I've had drawings, I've had writings. I once worked with a guy who called me a CU next Tuesday for eight sessions, ripped uploads of ID cards, wouldn't work. And then I said to him, one day, look, I need to be a co-driver on this journey of change. Like, let's get on this train. Let's make a difference. I'll be a co-driver. And let's see what can we can do with this Manchester lad. He was over here in Lincoln. You know, we talked about Hollands pies and Morey's bread. You know, it was something that just helped us connect. And if you're from Manchester and land, KHI you'll know what Holland's pies are. You're from anywhere in the country, you might have to Google them. But it was something so simple to him and he'd been failed by mental health services and every prison he had ever been in, he was hooked on lots of prescription medication.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 28:01

You know, he was on the hook, but he had been in and out of prison again, since 15 putting this window through in this house constantly. And then we did some really good work with him and he recognized the house that he keeps putting the windows through is the man that abused him. But what he'd failed to realize in his head was that man had moved on years ago. And it was always new families in that house that he was putting their windows through on. So nobody joined up the dots that he was, this was part of his trauma and nobody treated his trauma. You know, this dad had been abused by everybody in his family. It was in fact it was probably one of the most horrible abuse cases I've ever heard. And we worked really well together. And then I managed to get him in a drug rehab service over in Manchester. He then wrote to me and said do you want to come to my graduation? Because I'm about to drive my train for myself. I no longer need a code driver, but you're still there.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 29:16

So to me, that was beautiful, but I still do some, I do some free work in clinic with some veterans that can't afford private therapy. Who've been let down by the system. So, cause I am a veteran. They like the group. I tend to, even in the prison, I used to go to the veteran groups, you know, the prison offices would go to those veteran groups. The prison officers would just put a normal jumper up over their uniform kind of thing. So they didn't look like prison officers while we all sat around the table. And we'd take biscuits in and we'd have a cup of tea. Now I know tea biscuit is something like you think, but they don't get them in prison, you know? And it was just that area to like, let's think about this. Let us just be.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 29:55

Did you take nice biscuits?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 29:57

Yeah, course when it was my turn I took, but then they couldn't have foil on and you couldn't have theirs and you had to decal them out if they had any foil to them, that's a risk hazard in prison. So you weren't allowed. Yeah, but prison work was amazing. So anybody that wants to go to prison by the way, absolutely 100%. And if you look at the Scotland stuff, they're doing loads on compassionate prisons. Amazing.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 30:23

I love forensic work until I became a mummy. And then for me it just changed the way I felt I felt more vulnerable. But I know lots of people that do work in prisons whilst being a parent as well.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 30:37

Yeah, that was hard cuz it was only one time. It really impacted on me, which was when I was doing the assessment of a sex offender and he'd come in on multiple counts and was a scout leader, that impacted me on what I was gonna let my son do at the clubs he was going to. I was constantly hypervigilant around that. And I started to know, cause that was not a great thing as a mum. But this day when I was interviewing this sex offender, he told me boyfriend and on the, as all of went, hang on, is your B. And he said the same age as my son at the time. And I was like that's and, and I, and I was quite shocked. And I said to him, that's not your boyfriend that's and I was really indignant about it and then took a breathe and carried the assessment.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 31:31

The, of the assessment go for you and he was like, well, you really didn't like it. When I talked about my boyfriend and I said, he's not your boyfriend. And he is like, yeah, but you didn't like it. He wanted me to agree with him and I can't, you can't collude. He just gone. But that was the first time I ever felt quite rude in a session where normally it's clinical psych that we keep that nice face sometimes. So yes. And we'll just, you know, but I'm really, I've got facial leakage. Like you, what you see with me is what you get. I'm like, if I, if I, if I'm confused or I'm horrified, I show it because I think it's more transparent and genuine for the client. But with him that day I was furious, but it really impacted on me on my own child. That day was really hard.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 32:22

And the way we deal with that, so obviously take it to supervision as well. Don't we, let's model that as appropriate as well.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 32:29

Yeah, we take it to supervision, but sometimes supervision's fine. Sometimes you need to go for a run. Yeah. Or you need to scream it out or you need to go vent. Actually. There's a whole host of good ways. The supervision for me, any assistant psychologist, anyone that wanting to get on this cause get in the habit of being vulnerable in your supervision because you – is it alright to swear on these things?

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 32:55

We can, we can bleep it.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 32:57

But basically when you f*** up, you don't learn. If you don't go talk about it.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 33:03

Yeah.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 33:04

How do you learn to overcome something you've done wrong? If you don't talk about it, open and honesty and supervision, because then you learn better and we get better at who we are.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 33:16

We do. We do. I know that my audience, we really keen just for us to clarify the process around what happens. If when you are on a doctorate course, your thesis is failed. So my understanding is that you then qualify as an unqualified clinical psychologist and you don't get paid anymore. And you have to do the thesis in your own time and you'll need a job. Is that right?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 33:39

No. So basically you still attributed to the course that you are doing your thesis for you're right. You have to stay in your band trainee wage, wherever you are on that. You might got that. What the incumbent, wherever you are, that's where you stay. So you go still, as in, in your employment contract, it will say that your employment will be terminated if you do not complete your doctorate course. So yeah. So you're doing the qualified role, but you're doing it as band six. Well, not a band seven. Yeah.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 34:12

And you don't get the study day.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 34:15

You don't get any study leave. You don't get any study time in your new role. So basically what I'm saying to everybody is get your thesis done before you qualify .

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 34:26

But what you are also saying is it's not, it's not the end of the world and this does happen. And it might not be reasons that feel like they're within your control. But you can survive it. And actually in the grand scheme of things that one year hasn't really made an impact on your career. And it's likely that you would've, but you would've doing the same job anyway. You just got less money for it.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 34:49

Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, is it did take a real toll on my mental health, cuz they kept saying things like this is a dclinpsy, normal version. There's no dyslexic version. This is the dclinpsy.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 35:03

That course director who at the time, my course director said that to me, another, another member of the research team said to me, people like you lower the academic superiority of our course, you know, when you're getting those comments said to you at the same time and you can't

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 35:18

Gosh, on behalf, on behalf of clinical psychology, Dr. Deborah Kingston, I'd like to apologize to you because that's not okay. You know, that's not alright.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 35:29

But that's, but that's the thing. People hear these comments, they hear things. And what they do is they'll internalize them based on their own history. But sometimes there's no need, Dr. Marianne Trent for you to apologize for clinical psychologist because you are not narrow minded small bigoted and discriminatory so, you know, don't apologize for people who choose to have that behavior.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 35:53

Yeah, I know, but I'm just, I'm sorry for humans, what they've done. Well, I'm aware of the time I could talk to you for weeks. But something I ask everybody is for any advice they've got for reducing burnout along the journey for aspiring psychologists, what top tips would you give?

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 36:12

I would definitely say embrace yourself with people around you that love you because it's number one factor. I would get some support on your journey. So like I think you do a lot of literature and a lot of things. I think that I don't think we've had as much out for aspiring psychologists as we've currently got now. And I think it's tapping into those resources because I genuinely, at times felt quite alone. And if you can connect with like-minded people in some form of collective experience, I think it's invaluable because I think it'll keep you right. Your hobbies. I think it's so important to keep in essence of you, even though it's times, you might not feel like you've got any time for them. You can imagine doing them just for a couple of minutes and it'll really help. Is that a sense of imagination? Your body knows where that like knitting or crocheting or art or dance or drama, your body knows where that feels good for it. It's got a good memory of that. So even for five minutes, and then the most chaotic of days when we're trying to juggle 15 plates, stop for a moment, imagine you're doing the thing that you love the most and just really sense it in your body. And then you'll feel like you've just got a pep of energy to then keep going, which should in theory, stops and burn,

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 37:30

Ah, you're worth your wait in gold, Deborah amazing advice. And you know, I hope that our audience are just eating this up with a spoon. It's lovely. Where can people connect with you or learn more about you? If they should want to,

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 37:46

Well, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not active. I put the odd post out here and there, but I do. I always respond to private messages. You know, I've never let anybody down with that because I think it's important to pay back, you know, but I'm not the best at giving advice I'm dyslexic people. It's not my strength. However, what I would say is really analyze that, you know, the application form for the doctorate at the clearing house, really look at the scope of everything that you really need to do and then ask yourself, do I have that experience? And if I don't have that experience, where can I go get it? Because I think it's important. So many people apply for a doctorate course before they're actually ready to apply. So the year I shreded my application form, it actually felt like a cathartic experience because it would've just felt like for me, like a huge failure that I could see from the form there was gaps. So I think it's just been objective as well through this whole process. And in, if you have applied for the doctor course, I knew a girl that applied for it four times on the bounce, got on the reserve list. And on the fifth time of kin didn't even get an interview. But then on the sixth time got on the course.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 38:59

It's interesting cuz actually I think this amount of time to get on means that when you get on, I think you are ready for training, but there are some courses. I know we're, we're running over time, but there are some courses who now don't even look at the form so long as you meet essential criteria, you can then do an assessment test. And if you come first on the assessment test, for example, not first, but the first, however many, you then get invited to interviews. So the form's not even really being used. So in theory you could potentially get on very soon after your undergrad, but I needed all of those extra years. Even the time I spent sitting in a hammock in Thailand for a few months and I needed that time to help me later in my career.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 39:40

And I was the same. I did my honorary where I really learned about behaviorism. I learned about wards. I learned about nursing teams, the dynamics of teams. Then I went to the chronic fatigue service and I learned about occupational therapists and support workers in the vital role they play and the team element and group work. And then I went to forensics and I really cut my teeth and I had an amazing supervisor. I'm gonna give her a shout out cause without her, I wouldn't be here, which is Dr. Kerry Beckley. She was phenomenal. And she was the one that mentored me, I getting onto the course. And then beyond that three years of my doctorate. So, you know, it's about, without that levels of experience, joining it up together, I would never have got on and I wouldn't be the clinical psychologist. I am today doing my trauma informed stuff. Cause I've gone more specialism to be trauma informed. I can't, I don't treat everybody. I don't have a list as long as you are that say I do all these conditions. I'm a specialist in all this. Cause I'm just trauma and that's me.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 40:43

Very lucky they would be to see you. Deborah, it's been such a pleasure having you here. I might well invite you back in future, cuz there's lots and lots I could talk to you about, but thank you so much for your time. It's been a joy.

Dr. Deborah Kingston (: 40:55

You're welcome.

(: 40:56

Thank you for listening or watching. If you're on YouTube, I just could have spoken to Dr. Deborah all day. If you don't currently have someone that feels like they're on your tribe, they're your community. As we discussed with Deborah, then why not? Let me be considered for that role for you. Why not? Let me welcome you into the aspiring psychologist membership. We are doing great things in there and people are finding it to be really supportive in you know, compassionately encouraging their, but also helping to develop their skills to got loads in there. So you can find out more information about that by clicking the link in the show notes or my bio in any of my social media platforms will take you right there too. And of course the clinical psychologist collective is also a great place to start. If you are looking to broaden your narratives of people heading towards qualified roots in psychology, thank you very much for being part of my world. And don't forget the next episode of the aspiring psychologist podcast. We'll be dropping into your ears. At 6:00 AM on Monday, take care of you. Be kind to you.