Educational & Child Psychology and working in Education Settings with Dr Michele McDowell

(: 00:28

Hi, welcome along to the aspiring psychologist podcast. Thank you for listening and thank you again for being part of my world. Thank you also to everybody who has been in contact to say how useful they have found the clinical psychologist collective book. And of course the aspiring psychologist membership in supporting their application process in psychology this year. And there have been a few success stories as well within the membership of people getting onto clinical training and also people who found reading the clinical psychologist, collective book, really helpful in helping them develop their own confidence in talking about their narratives and in reflecting and being able to draw on strengths and experiences across their career. So, if you haven't grabbed a copy yet, or if you're not yet on the waiting list for the aspiring psychologist membership, then do check out the details in the show notes so that you can go and check it all out on my link tree, but with no further ado, whilst we are talking about a clinical psychologist collective, why not meet someone who is featured in the book, but not in the capacity of clinical psychology. Let's think about other route to professional qualifications in psychology. In today's podcast episode, I am joined by Dr. Michelle McDowell, who is an educational and child psychologist. She's lovely to chat to, and I hope you'll find this episode super useful. I will catch you on the other side. Okay. Welcome along. I am joined today by my wonderful guest. Dr. Michelle McDowell. Michelle is an educational psychologist. Hi, welcome along Michelle.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 02:35

Good morning. Thank you for having me Marianne.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 02:38

You're so welcome. So, what I think can be really useful is if we give the audience a flavor of where you are at right now, but also a little bit of a potted history about how you got there and why.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 02:51

Okay. I'll try to remember. I'm gonna call all of that an all in one . So, like you said, I'm an education and child psychologist. I didn't go directly to that route. And I'll tell you why when I first trained many years ago now, so in 2000, I trained as a psychologist. You had to be a teacher first. So I did my teach training. And by the way, before I did teach training, I had no clue of what I wanted to do. And so somebody was saying to me, oh, you know, the PGC is one year. And at the time it was very well funded. So I was like, right. Okay, this sounds great. So I did the PG C E for the year and was trained to teach government and politics and history. Although I had aspects of psychology within my initial degree.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 03:51

So, I went along to teach training after that started on my teaching career in secondary school. And in my very, very first term, I was a fall tutor, right. In my very first term of teaching. I had a pupil who was a lovely young man in year seven, ill never forget him. He was just really sporty actually, and just a joyous young man, really bubbly in the class, struggled of literacy, just couldn't get to engage on literacy and of quite a few of his teachers, secondary school, obviously. So, you know, would comment and say, he's got all the answers and is really struggling. So the SENCO, I've had to do stuff with special education and these coordinator at SENCO and she'd organized for the educational psychologist to come into school. And during the consultation, I said to her, can you tell me what exactly is it that you do?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 04:51

And after an elongated conversation, I had my aha moment and that was it. I was like, this is my calling. This is what I'm supposed to do, educational psychology. So I then continued on the journey. Now I want to make a distinction cause it's very different now, but my journey through to the training to become an educational psychologist, like I said, at the beginning was you needed some teaching experience. So I'd already started on that journey. I had a degree that had some aspects of psychology in it, but not enough to get the GBR status. So I then had to do an initial masters in psychology and then it wasn't quite a diploma, but I guess it was certificate in the additional topics that you needed to become a to get that status. And then I applied to be an educational psychologist. Now that sounds like quite a simple route, but it took years cause I was studying part-time. I'm going on and on here. Do you want me to continue?

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 05:59

Or sure, absolutely. How old were you when you started?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 06:12

Well, of course I'm confident in my womanhood and aid her as they say I dunno, let me think now. Cause I did my doctorate later, so actually let me carry on with the journey. So, when I trained you needed a master in science at MSC to become an education and child psychologist. So, it was many moons ago. So I think I did the MA and then the MSC and I think by the time 2000, how old would I have been 30? Yeah, I was fully qualified.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 06:49

You were not hanging around. Were you, you know, you did your teaching qualification, then you did all of the stuff you needed to do to be able to qualify as an ed psych at 30 that's some going.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 07:00

Yeah, to be honest, I spent much longer in teaching cause I loved it. So there was quite a bit of, do I go, do I not go? Cause I really, really enjoy teaching. But it was changing and it was at that stage that we, they were making adjustments in the curriculum again and it was much more sort of paper based. And I was like, mm it's probably a good time to, you know, transfer and change really. And so I chose to do it then at yeah, in 2000.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 07:28

I love that. Actually it was a personal story, a personal connection, something that you could tangibly almost feel and connect to that really turned your head in the direction of educational psychology. And you know, I think it is one of my favorite things about this profession of psychology of ours is that we get to work with people who can shape us as well as hopefully we have a positive impact on them as well, but that young man might never know that actually…

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 08:01

Absolutely.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 08:02

..the impact he had on you. And it's really incredible. But I'm really pleased it happened because it lead you towards this new passion.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 08:11

Absolutely. If I think about my life, actually there have been these moments as I'm sure it is for everybody else. And often personal that I've been impacted and triggered moving on to something new, you know or certainly a change in transition. So yeah, definitely.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 08:33

It's important that we can reflect on that. Can't we, have you ever done any journaling or diary kind of keeping to help you with your reflections? Or how do you manage your reflections if you don't do that?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 08:48

You know, it's really interesting. I used to journal quite a bit. I used to write poetry actually, and then I used to journal, but almost, I think daily for years and years and years and years. And after I had my son so about well, about 10 years ago that I was there I paused and then it just kind of have did it intermittently, but not quite ever got consistently back into it and I miss it. And so I think maybe I'm gonna start again, start journaling again.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 09:24

I think it's never too late to start again, is it? It’s recognizing the stuff that's been useful along our journey. And then thinking, oh, I might, I might do that again. You know, what form did you used to do it? Did you do it kind of at the end of your day, would you do it at the beginning of the day or a little bit of, you know, ad hoc? Here and there.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 09:45

I think there were phases. So I think when I was much younger, I used to do it at the end of the day and it used to be almost a kind of a reflection on what, what, what I'd experienced each day. And then I think sort of post degree around that time, it used to be something that I did quite early on in the morning and it was more intentional. So I used to focus on what I wanted the day to look like, and it was much more focused. And then I went through a period of time. It was very intentional and I got into the more, the neuropsychology of it all really, and you know, that kind of focus intent and being hadn't gratitude and, you know and so it would be preempt, you know, it would preempt the day if you like. So that was quite an adjustment.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 10:36

Yeah. I think it's children , they squash all of our good practices. You know, they bring much joy with them, but you know, our window of kind of tolerance is just, I think just a bit more shrunk for, you know, the joyful things that might have kept us well as well. So I'm aware that with clinical psychology, you are employed via NHS trusts to train as a trainee clinical psychologist. Could you tell us a little bit about whether there's funded options available for trainee educational psychologists?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 11:12

Yes. So my understanding of this, and it might not be the best because it's been quite a while now, but it transferred from masters at MSC to become a fully a doctorate. I think that was in 2000 as well or 2000 and 2003, I think it adjusted changed over. So, but even with the MSC, I think there's the body of educational psychology, the local authorities all joined together. And so there's a funding pot previous to the doctorate. You could finance yourself. Some of the applicants would have a unfunded offer and then there would be funded offers. My understanding now is that there were only funded offers because I think it's quite a lot to expect anybody over three year period to be able to afford.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 12:10

Are they now doctor courses or are they still masters?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 12:13

Only doctoral courses now.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 12:15

Okay. Cause that's different than I think health and counseling psychology are self-funding only, and yet it is still a three year doctorate. It's very tricky.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 12:24

Oh, okay. It is very tricky. And I think educational psychology has gone through quite a rough time. So I remember when I was training there was talk about there was going to be a real gap in educational psychologists, because there was so many retiring at the same time. I don't know why that turns, that that seemed to be such a kind of bubble if you like, of people that were retiring, but it feels like we never quite caught up. So it's heavily in demand education and child psychology at the moment, but there seems to be a bottleneck cause there's because of the funding. Cause there only ever a certain amount of people that go through the training. And then on the other end, there are so many local authorities that are in desperate need of educational child psychologists.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 13:23

Yeah. Certainly when I worked in CAMHS services, I think there was an allocation of ed psych hours per school. Yes. And it was like 10 hours a term or something like that. You know, it was really minimal. And so you're having to like almost pick your neediest children or young people in the school, but that doesn't mean that there's not a lots of other people who also have, you know, valid needs for that. It's very tricky. Do you get involved with triaging, who to see or is that a case of the school having to make those referrals?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 13:56

So part of my journey has been that since 2007, I've pretty much been self-employed. So I work quite differently to a local authority educational and child psychologists. But what ordinarily would happen is the local authority, the educational psychology service would very, very skillfully and carefully carve out time for each of the schools. And it would be based on things like the priorities of the school in terms of used to be free school meals. Those children that are vulnerable, et cetera. And they would identify the needs of the school and based on the size of the school as well, and then allocate time. And it was almost always bottom heavy if you like. So the primary schools would always get more time than secondary schools. It's always underpinned by early intervention as much as possible.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:58

Thank you for sharing that with us. What's a typical day like? If there's such a thing in the life of an ed psych specifically you.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 15:09

Oh, so I might be very different to an like local authority. But you did say specifically me, so I will say I do a range of things at the moment and I think that's a Sagitarian in me. I've always struggled to do one thing at a time. So I do a range there at the moment. If I look at my diary this week, I am doing some consultation for a company who will be supporting schools with mental health. And they've had asked me to have a look at their program and support them with, you know, sort of highlighting what they could include in the program, but also emphasizing some aspects of the emotional literacy curriculum for them within the program. So they can deliver that to schools. I am offering some supervision and support to an organization again that works with young people and I'm writing a report so I'm, I do sometimes work for local authorities.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 16:14

And so I work like a local authority educational psychologist, but on a case by case basis. So I'm completing a report today for a very tight deadline, which is constantly my life. What else will I be doing? I'm on podcast, which I'm really happy to be doing as well. So that's today for me, but I'm constantly, I think this is the challenge and the benefit of independent work is I'm often offered very different types of work and that's great. The challenge is I'm always thinking, right. Okay. Should I? I'm always worried really about a gap. So I'm constantly saying yes to things and after thinking my goodness, you know, the bucket is full. So it is, it's getting that balance between not saying yes to absolutely everything ensuring that you have some time.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 17:17

Absolutely. And I think that's something that’s what we start to begin to be able to learn as aspiring psychologists as well. Isn't it? There's lots of people chucking work down at us and we're having to say no, I'm only one person.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 17:29

Exactly.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 17:30

And I said to you just before we came on camera as well, oh, it's summer holidays too. Cause you're speaking in June. You know, is that quiet a time for you? And you were like, no, not really!

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 17:42

No, not necessarily because the schools do close and they're very good at identifying the children that have needs and ensuring that they have put in support for them or requesting support before they leave for the summer. So we are then busily around the summer, you know, we've probably done those assessments previous to, and we'll be writing them up during the summer. Then you have children who will be transferring from primary to secondary school, usually in the following year, but they need to have the admin reviews done to review it if they had a educational health and care plan or they need still the same as they transition in secondary school, for example.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 18:25

Would it be okay to briefly outline what an education health plan is for our audience, if that's okay?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 18:31

Of course, an education, health and care plan (EHCP). So previously it was known as a statement of educational needs. And what it means is a very small percentage of children, they have a higher, special educational need than the majority of their peers. It's usually between not 2% think we've got quite significant needs. And so even though the school is putting in as much support as they can asking for advice and support and outside the parents often feel that without additional funding and additional support, they'll not be able to reach full potential and will struggle and have a kind of a challenging experience at school. So the educational health and care plan is about all the professionals that work with the young person offering advice, if you like. So we as educational psychologists usually do that via some form of consultation and assessment with the school, the parent and the child. It's varied and it's become more complex over the whole lockdown period because usually it was always face to face, but during lockdown, it became more remote for some of the work I'm doing now is remote.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 19:53

And I'm engaging young people online as it were. So the, the whole idea of the educational health and care plan is for all the professionals that are working with the young person and the young person and their family to put all the information in one space and that space, that educational health and care panel, that information is then viewed by what's known as the SEN panel. So every local fellow has a special education needs panel. And the idea of it is that it's quite representative. So you'll have usually school heads or school sends will take turns in attending the panel at the local authority, you'll have the special educational needs department from the local authority. You'll have an educational psychologist on there and sometimes time permitting you'll have somebody from health as well. So that panel meets on a weekly basis.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 20:49

And what they do is look at the requests for an educational health and care plan. And they'll decide on which ones I think are in need of a further assessment and which aren't. And they'll also look at the educational health and care plan information for each child and decide on whether they think that they, it warrants them at this point, having some additional support. And if that's agreed, then the education health and care plan is written. Now this is a plan that follows a child from 4 to 25 years old. So, it's earmarked funding for a young person throughout their educational career, if you like.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 21:32

Okay. Thank you so much for that. I know that'll be really useful for people trying to navigate their way through psychology and perhaps if they're working with educational services or perhaps if they just want to know, it's often abbreviated, isn't it? Could you tell us the abbreviation that people might be seeing?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 21:48

So educational health and care plan is an EHCP.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 21:55

And do you ever work alongside aspiring psychologists or how can people get experience of working alongside people like you in your profession?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 22:07

Mm-Hmm it's a question that I every so often I think, mm, should I get an assistant psychologist? So I probably could do, I think it would, it's very much about the type of ways that you're working because I work in quite an eclectic way. I think I'd find it quite challenging to support an assistant psychologist at this point, but I think most local authorities people keep knocking on their doors. I know there are issues around GDPR, et cetera, but most local authorities will be open to having a discussion with somebody who is considering educational child psychology. It is a bit more challenging to do shadowing if you'd like for a day because of safeguarding issues, et cetera. But it's not impossible to do some work around an educational psychology service, but again, that's changed so much and so much has changed since the pandemic.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 23:16

So the way local authorities are set up. So most of local authorities that I've worked in since the pandemic are working on a skeleton within the office, really, and people are very much just going into pick up their materials and then working at home really. So it's very different to when I first started out. So that might be a challenge for, you know, being able to shadow somebody, but I don't think it's impossible. So, it is very much approaching the local authority and asking. I think it's important to say that your educational psychology role again has changed. Cause there are so many people that are now leaving the training and becoming independent psychologist almost immediately. When I first started, it was very much round upon because it felt that you needed to do your foundation within psychology service. But that seems to be quite different now. So people are becoming independent much earlier on, so there are different organizations out there if you like, or groups of associates. So again, it might be helpful for a, as far as psychologists who approach one of the many organizations that are out there, obviously ensuring that the psychologists are HCPC registered cetera, but

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 24:29

Yeah. Yeah. Cause you need to be you part of the practitioner, psychologist, cluster, aren't you the same as clinical psychologists? Yeah. So you need to be registered with the health and care professions council. They definitely added an extra P in there and some didn't. It used to be shorter than that. Lovely. You mentioned Sagitarian, I'm a Gemini and it made me think about, you know, maybe that's where I like to have lots of things going on, but has spirituality culture and faith been important to you in your journey as an aspiring psychologist and beyond Michelle?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 25:07

Oh, I think absolutely very important. In fact, I think it's become more. So obviously sort of definitions of all the things that you've mentioned are very different for different people and mean different things. But I think my intention around life has certainly changed as I've devote to experience and grown in my profession. I've always been a believer, you know, in God, et cetera, although I've always found it quite challenging to find a specific space. Cause again, I'm quite eclectic with my thinking and my processes around belief. And quite early on in my career, I started to become curious about neuropsychology, the idea that you can, you know, sort of intense things, if you like into your life, focus your thoughts on the direction and the behavior seems to follow. So I've been really interested in that type of research quite early on. I changed an emotional freedom technique, EFT tapping, which I've always really enjoyed and always found really helpful. So that's very much a stay of my practice at the moment. And hypnotherapy, which I know there's been an increase in its popularity, I think hypnotherapy, but again, it's been something that's been really helpful for me and I've promoted in my practice as well.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 26:33

So, I know that in NHS and funded services we can often have to kind of stick to NICE guidance and kind of tried and trusted approaches that have got a firm evidence base and hypnotherapy is something that lots of clients ask for or inquire about, but it's not necessarily registered or regulated or recognized by the NHS for example, but does it free you up to use that more within private practice?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 27:04

It does. I think again, ensuring that you used correct CPD and training, et cetera. I think things with hypnotherapy, I think I'm a bit more comfortable in using and the EFT because the research is developing all of the time. So there's quite, even though it's a challenge because obviously it's not as conventional as other practices are, it's helpful that there is positive research out there in terms of outcomes for others. And I do feel that sense of freedom of being able to use that much more so than they probably would do if I was working entirely for a local authority.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 27:46

Yeah, absolutely. It allows us to have the freedom when working in private practice to do what's going to work for that client. As long as it's ethically sound, of course, which of course I know it would be lovely. Have you got any advice for people that might be listening to this that might think, oh, you know, I think educational psychology might be a good route for me. What could they do or what should they do? What would be a good first step, for example, if they were as an A-level students or if they were doing their psychology degree right now.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 28:20

Far enough, I just spoke to an A level student who's thinking about psychology, it wasn't necessarily educational psychology, but I was saying to her, get a good sense of what you are really interested in, in what is it that you would like to get out of your career? You know? And I think we were speaking about that earlier, the idea of connecting and connecting with people. I think it's really important. I would say, secondly, it's really, really, if I did my time again, I think it would've been really important to get that shadowing in much earlier on and get a sense of what the job looks like on a day to day basis. So knock on much more doors, ask for that, you know, opportunity to do that. Find out as much as you can about educational and child psychology. So it's not this kind of miss, cause I think sometimes I speak to young people and they think it's gonna be this sense of just you know, sitting with a child sometimes almost like psychotherapy and it's, it's not like, like that at all. So just getting a sense of what it looks like, you know a child and educational psychology, and then familiarize yourself with that area, familiarize yourself with schools, get some experience. Or even though you don't have to be a teacher anymore, you do have to have show an understanding of the educational experience and the provision and educational provision. So get some experience in those areas.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 29:49

Perfect. Thank you so much. Is there anything that I haven't asked you, which you think I should have done or might have been useful for me to ask so far?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 30:00

That's interesting question. I think joy, what do I enjoy about the role or do I enjoy it? And what I would say is that I've always, I do think it was the role and has been the role for me, psychology not the role, sorry, the, the topic psychology. I've always been interested in people and the mind, et cetera. So it does bring me joy, even in the most challenging moments. I would say that I've enjoyed it as a profession, you know.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 30:36

That is such an important answer. And it's something I do with clients quite often, as we'll have a bit of a joy audit, you know, we'll look at which areas of our life we are getting joy from because it is supposed to be enjoyable, isn't it? Mm mm-hmm if it's not feeling enjoyable, then it might be that its…it could be many reasons can't it could be that you haven't got a good fit with your psychology supervisor. Mm-Hmm it could be that there's just too much work and you're being kind of consumed by it. You know, it might not just be that it's you, that's the problem. It's worth looking at some other factors as well. Isn't it? And with that in mind, I often ask my guests, if you've got any advice to support people from reducing burnout, when they are aspiring psychologists, what would be your top tips?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 31:23

I would say, when you plan for the week, you write your diary about what you're going to do for the week. You get entering something that's completely different and have that kind of tea morning wellbeing morning. Well, it's something that is included within that week, cuz it can become really intense. And I would say as an independent psychologist, quite lonely as well. So I often try booking, engaging times with others. So it's not just this kind of soul time on your own.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 31:59

That's what I say many, many of our audience are probably working remotely as well. Aren't they…? I know remote working kind of also foster that feeling. And yeah, I do what you say really, you know, I book lunch and brunch dates, you know I connect with people through the podcast and more widely as well, but being connected to something, you know, that's not just you sitting by yourself, tapping away is it!

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 32:25

Really, absolutely!

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 32:27

Lovely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining me. Michelle, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you. How could people get in contact with you if they wanted to, to, to send referrals your way or learn more about your work?

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 32:41

I've been a bit now on social media. I have to say what I do have a LinkedIn page and I have a Facebook page, both of the same mate name, Dr. Michelle McDowell.

Dr. Marianne Trent (: 32:50

So, what I will do is I will make sure I pop links to your socials and your website or whatever you need in the show notes for this episode. But thank you so much for you know, opening our eyes to this really important area of psychology, which is education and child psychology. And yeah, let us know if we can do anything for you or with you in future. And thank you so much.

Dr. Michelle McDowell (: 33:14

Thank you for your time.

(: 33:17

Thank you so much for listening. Hope you found everything that Dr. Michelle and I had to say really useful if you'd like to read Michelle's story. And for that matter lots and lots of other qualified psychologists stories, including of course, clinical psychology, but also including health psychology, counseling, psychology forensic psychology and academic roots into psychology. You can most definitely do. So by checking out the clinical psychologist collective book, which you can grab from Amazon or for ease, you can click on the link in the show notes. Don't forget that the aspiring psychologist membership is opening just for another 15 people on the 1st of July. So get yourself on that waiting list. And then you can swoop in there as soon as it opens at 8:00 AM on the 1st of July and that's just 30 pounds a month and there is a ton of value in there even for you to catch up.

(: 34:22

But each month we have a live group zoom with myself where we do go through professional and personal issues. There is live C B T teaching and formulation sessions. We've got stuff coming up on research. We've got trainings that go in every month. There's opportunities each week to ask me anything you like. And so it's a really great resource and it's a really nice community spirit in there. People are really supportive and kind. So if you feel like you are missing your tribe or you haven't yet stumbled across them or it's feeling a bit lonely or you're not receiving, you know, quality clinical supervision, perhaps you're just not with someone who you think gets you or is furthering your skills and why not come and top that up so that you can get the optimal experiences from your, from your occupational employment.

(: 35:21

Right, I hope you have enjoyed today's episode and I will look forward to catching up with you very soon for the next time our podcast pops in cuz you should be subscribed really at 6:00 AM every Monday. And don't forget, you can always catch up on all of the replays which are available through your usual podcast channels, but you know, Spotify, apple, Google Amazon, all those good places. So do listen to the back catalog and I will be along with the next episode very soon. Take care, have a lovely day. If