How to thrive spending time alone with Francesca Specter - Alonement Author

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

On today's episode, I am joined by Francesca Specter, who is a journalist and author Ofone. We are thinking about how to do things by yourself more often with joy and in a way that feels really enriching. These are really interesting ideas in psychology, both in undergraduate master's study, and even in post-graduate doctoral courses. And for that matter, relevant experience roles means that we can find ourselves starting afresh at different stages of our lives. Stay tuned right to the end for Francesca's Top tips for how to begin to be more comfortable with spending time by yourself, even if you are in a relationship or have good support

Jingle Guy (: 00:49

If with this.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:19

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. So people have been in contact with me recently to discuss what to do about doctoral courses and to discuss whether to accept jobs that are, you know, perhaps a couple of hours away, or more from where their current lives are and what their current support systems are. And I want to be able to add to the narrative so that when people are making decisions about jobs, that they can do so by being empowered to know that it's okay to do this by themselves. And in that regard, I wanted to invite along a real expert in being alone and being comfortable with that. And so our guest for today is Francesca Specter, and she is a journalist and author of a wonderful book called Alonement. And I really hope that you'll find this episode useful, perhaps for your own uses if you are starting out, or maybe gonna be starting out a new chapter of your life in future, but also for client work as well.

(: 02:42

So if people are coming to you with issues of loneliness, then how you can think about empowering them to feel more confident in being alone and when to listen to those feelings of loneliness and to, to forge and form connections and plan activities with others. So for many reasons, I hope you'll find it really useful. Francesca is wonderful to listen to and to speak with, and I felt so uplifted from our conversation, so I hope that you will do too. I look forward to catching up with you on the other side. I just want to welcome our guest for today, Francesca Specter. Hi Francesca.

Francesca Specter (: 03:22

Hi Marianne.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:24

So you are a journalist, but you are also an author of a book that we're gonna talk about a little bit later, but your specialism is or has become for, for one reason or another about how to be alone or how to not be part of a couple or a relationship and how to do it well, is that right?

Francesca Specter (: 03:47

You know, it's so funny because it, it can be interpreted in so many different ways. I think the word alone, a lot of people still see it as synonymous with single. And the fact is, I think because I've been predominantly single for most of the past four years since I started writing about this subject, people are naturally making that conflation. I guess the way that I like to think about it is the ideas ofone about how to spend time alone healthily and how to balance that with our natural desire for social time as well. I think that being single can be a really fertile ground to explore that, not the only life situation as we'll talk about in this podcast, but one of those situations where it becomes a really good area to explore one's natural tolerance for time alone and how to make that a bit better and a bit more enjoyable. So yeah, it's, it's really, it, it is very open to interpretation and for a lot of people that's when they discover my book and my podcast and my platform when they are in a period of being single.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:55

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the reasons I wanted to invite you on, we've worked quite, quite a lot together in terms of guest expert for your journalism pieces, which I've loved being part of. So thank you for that.

Francesca Specter (: 05:07

Thank you. It's been so lovely working with you, .

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:10

Thank you. You're welcome. One of the reasons I wanted to bring you on is because psychology can be what feels like quite a solo pursuit because it's, it's you and your career and you are having to make decisions that might be in isolation of those around you. And in fact, one of the decisions I made was sort of to decide to split up a relationship because I wanted, I knew where I was going and I knew it would involve me having to find new roots and new connections and trying to, to make my own way. But it means that quite often people are restarting or starting a new chapter of their life and they're doing it in a way that feels like they might be quite isolated or sometimes even they're having to move to the other end of the country either for a job offer or for a course offer. And it might mean either not living with their family or commuting back to their family or just, just, even if you are moving with your family, trying to start over again. It's really, really complicated.

Francesca Specter (: 06:14

It is. And I think there are so many things worth doing in life. There are so many things that are the most, probably in the most self-actualizing things that you might do, whether that's being able to travel or live abroad for period or pursuing something like psychology as a profession, a lot of those things they require overcoming some sort of fear of being alone. And I don't think we really speak enough about how often that fear, even whether, you know, whether it's named or not, is the thing that actually stops people from pursuing their dreams. And then people, you know, and then further down the line, you know, 10, 20 years, it's like, oh, I never did this because of so-and-so. And I, I think that that resentment's probably loaded in the wrong place. I think that the, the first thing to tackle is right, why is being alone so scary to begin with?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 07:07

Absolutely. And I guess I'm thinking about how, especially over the last few years, we've all become not at all tolerant to the idea of being bored. And you know, we've all become pretty a D H D about our phones, you know, and it's like, it's thought that it's as addictive as crack, isn't it? Having a smartphone. And the, you know, someone was talking the other day about being on a, being on a train for three hours and they observed this older chap who just peacefully sat and watched, you know, the scenery unfold for those three hours cos he didn't either didn't have a mobile or didn't choose to use it. And in contrast to, to the people that were speaking, they were on their phones, they had their tablets, they had, you know music to listen to. It was like they couldn't bear to have that unstructured time of being just alone. They had to be part of something. How, how's your take on that?

Francesca Specter (: 08:08

Yeah, well firstly, I don't know how much I believe in the idea of boredom. I know it sound like a sort of, you know, parent sort of saying this to a child , you know, sort of complaining about being bored. But I just think there are so many things that we, we, we have this wealth of information entertainment online and, and everywhere else, you know, we have, I'm getting, I'm sound really old here, you know, we have, we have public libraries, we have, we have, the whole world is very, very stimulating and exciting when we have the chance to experience it. And I think the problem is we've normalised a level of, as you say, a level of noise, which is so distracting without allowing us to go into any depth. And I think, I think it's crazy that our know, our attention spans are sort of evolving into a TikTok length period of time.

(: 09:01

It's, it's really crazy. And, you know, I definitely can speak from my own experience when I find myself feeling the most lonely, I'll be going on Instagram the most, but then inexplicably, like ignoring all the WhatsApps from my close friends, or not feeling like I have time to reply to a voice note, but scrolling for hours and hours. And I think it's that sense of, I don't know, it's, it's like a sense of sort of calm and like groundedness. You need to get to, to be able to actually find this stuff engaging in a way that feels nourishing, not just sort of distracting to the point that like, you know, it, it's actually more like a crutch. But I think that that's, it's why that I say that with, with alone months, with, you know, which, which alone months just in and of itself just means kind of time alone that's positive and fulfilling and nourishing it the opposite to loneliness.

(: 10:03

But I think to get to the state of alone months, the, it sounds very, that sounds very enlightened, doesn't it? But yeah, just to get to any positive alone time space, you need to have a grounding practise. Like something like breath work, meditation doesn't have to be as, you know, it doesn't have to sound as lofty as that. You know, walking by yourself, reading whatever, something that will take you away from that frenetic, distracted state to a bit more of a sort of slow exhaling state that then you can enjoy things a bit more and actually be a bit more comfortable in your own company to then be able to sort of think about the bigger, the bigger periods of time you might spend by yourself.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I guess it's thinking about how you want to be alone, isn't it? So alonement isn't the same as lonely and if you feel lonely, it's perhaps a sign that you can do things differently.

Francesca Specter (: 11:01

Yeah, absolutely. I, I mean I think it's worth saying, like you can feel alonement and you can feel loneliness in the same day. Hell, you can probably feel them in the same hour. It's, you know, it's really, I think it's funny because when I started out mostly what I spoke about was almost, you know, how to, how to make your alone time better so you know how to plan in plan in solo dates into your schedule, how to actually, you know, think proactively about what you're doing. All of that, you know, a little bit like also crossing over with the self-care. But actually as my thinking has evolved, as I've had more conversations about this spoken to more experts, I think a lot more of that is in the balance. And acknowledging that, for instance, you know, I come to this as from the perspective of a natural extrovert.

(: 11:57

And I, you know, I say natural because I think that there is you know, the, the scientific evidence, you'll know more about this than me that, you know, you know, genetically you are wired one way or the other towards extroversion or introversion. I am more wired towards extroversion. So I know that actually a big important thing for me safeguarding against loneliness is sort of planning ahead my week and thinking, okay, like how much time am I going to have with others this week? How many, how much quality time, time? How am I going to get that into my day? Whether that's the yoga class I'm doing at lunchtime or whether that's, you know, meeting up with a friend going and sitting on someone's sofa one evening. And I think it's really just being aware that both of those can happen and not sort of almost I don't, and not being so self-critical about those times where you are sitting alone on a train and, and you feel the need to pick up your phone. Just kind of thinking, oh, okay, why, why this, this feels like loneliness. Like am I, what do I need to counteract that to make sure I'm not in this sort of frenetic state of not really appreciating my alone time in the nourishing way that I should or would want to?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 13:11

Absolutely. It's given yourself permission to just enjoy that moment and open up that book perhaps and not feel guilty about that and not worry about what other people might be thinking or saying.

Francesca Specter (: 13:25

Right. Cos I mean, that's another element that comes into it. I think that quite often, even if we're alone at home, it's really funny. It's like the sort of, we're almost imagining what people might be saying, especially I think trigger times like a Saturday night or New Year's Eve is the big one. Even though I dunno about you, I've, I hated most New Year's eves and I really want to spend it alone. Absolutely. . Yeah. It's just such, it's such a thing, it's such a universal thing and everyone drags themselves out and I just, yeah, we, we sort of imagine that. And I think that actually the more we normalise conversations about this and we always, the more we open it up and make it a bit sociable, like, oh, I just had a really great train journey, read a book you know, stared out the window and then, then someone's like, oh, that sounds good.

(: 14:12

I, I might do that. You know, we're social beings in a lot of ways, and I think that actually normalising aloneness for each other can be quite a healthy thing to do as well. So you almost then, then the next time you're sitting there alone on a train, we're using that example, you know, even alone on a Saturday night, you're kind of thinking, oh, like, you know, I dunno, Emma did this, but, but who or Emma is, but you know, Emma did this last Saturday and she had a great time. Like maybe, you know, we can chat about this, we can relate about this. This is not a weird state of being. This is actually something I need as much more as, as much as I need my, you know, Friday happy hour drinks, whatever.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:53

Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's normalise alonement for sure. And at this time of year, people who are getting onto doctorate courses in psychology are, are sometimes having to decide, you know, whether potentially to accept a place that means that come September they will be moving possibly hours away from, from everything they currently know. What would be your advice about how to navigate that period?

Francesca Specter (: 15:25

Well, I mean, so as assuming, assuming this person makes the decision to, to then go, I, I think that it is, it is a very difficult decision to begin with. I think that we are, so we're told from, gosh, we're told from like you know, first year as a primary school, you know, we're taught social skills, we're taught how to be around others. And you know, we're taught rightfully obviously the, you know, the, the importance of friends, family, but we're not taught solitude skills. And so we're not taught the skills to deal with a scenario like that where you're like, oh wow, I really am away from my support system. No one ever ga you know, yeah, okay, we're told, told to be ambitious, we're told to pursue our dreams, but actually no one gave me the skillset to be able to navigate this scenario.

(: 16:13

So I think even just beginning, if that feels like a daunting decision that you've made, starting with, okay, that is, that is hard. And you know, so, so socially we're not really equipped to do that. You know, to begin with. It is, it is, it is natural to feel scared, but then I think that there is, so often I think people will say that they've come to a state of, I dunno, increased alone time, whether that's through a breakup whether that's through living alone for the first time, whether that's through, I don't know, a pandemic, you know in, in recent history where they've had that time. And it, it can be a really fruitful time to learn a bit more about yourself. It can be really exciting. And I think that knowing that that might be inherent too and just, I guess thinking a bit more proactively about, you know, okay, so my schedule back home or back where I'm coming from might have been dictated by, you know, maybe going to the, I dunno, go, you know, going to the pottery class that all my friends do, even though I'm not really that into pottery or like you are doing everything that my immediate friendship group or, you know, family kind of fancy doing.

(: 17:28

But that's not something that necessarily is how I would live my life. And just thinking about this kind of blank canvases, okay, scary cos blank canvases are scary, but also an exciting fertile prospect. You know, I, I think that that is it, it always is an opportunity even though we don't frame it that way in society. And, but you know, I think also what I said about balance as well, I think that, so, you know, some people are natural introverts and honestly I've had a, a, you know, my cousin for instance, he is amazing in his own company. He's funny because he's super confident, super, you know, life of every party, but loved the pandemic and he really took that as a huge opportunity to just lean into all the, you know, watching all the films. He likes taking really long walks. If you are, if you are wired a little bit more like me and you are more towards the extroversion and you think, okay, I'm really going to struggle because that this is just naturally what I need.

(: 18:30

I think it's really going back to square one and thinking, okay, so I want to do these nice things alone. I want to make the best thing best of my time, but like also I do need, you know, I do need to see someone three evenings a week, whatever. Like we all have different sort of balances or I do need maybe, I dunno, a community activity at least once or twice a week. And thinking what that might be and just being a bit more proactive within the, obviously it depends where you are, but within the realms of what you have possible, like, thinking about this as like almost a logic problem because I think it's so easy, easy to think about, to feel when you feel a bit lonely and when you leave it too long to, to think about this as a sort of very personal, very isolated state that no one ever has experienced. Whereas if you can think about it a bit more proactively, a bit more detached and you know, obviously easier said than done, but like almost anticipating these issues, then that can be a really good state to then just put in the framework that you need to be able to enjoy social time and solitude time alongside each other.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:32

Absolutely. And as you talk, I'm thinking, gosh, I wish I'd had this alternative narrative available to me when it was my time to be a trainee clinical psychologist, actually, cos I spent many of my weekends, certainly in the first year coming back, you know, an hour to where my parents lived and seeing my friends that lived more locally. And yes, I've got some, I had some really fond memories of you know, going to my normal Saturday morning Pilates class and then catching up with my friend and having a cup of tea together and, you know, spending time together and it meant that I got to see my dad and my mum or my dad's passed away now. So it was kind of, you know, it's nice, but if I'd had the idea that I could just be by myself or, you know, join a local class and learn something and connect more to the people around me, you know, bear to tolerate meeting new people, making new connections rather than just leaning as a crutch on, on my old ones, you know, I don't know what that would've been like.

Francesca Specter (: 20:38

It's hard and I think, you know, it's, it's difficult where, where you do have that well, you know, that pull of, you know, friends and family back home. And it, it is, you know, it's that that's one really normal coping mechanism to be going back a lot. But you know, I suppose like, and it's obviously like case by case basis, but like I think almost being able to sort of, I dunno, I I I I was the same, like, it's actually making me think of my first year at university. I, I was going home quite a lot. And it means I think, I don't think I ever made any, I I, I've made two friends from university, actually two very close friends, which is great because, you know, how many friends do you need in in adulthood really, you know, as long as you've got the quality ones.

(: 21:30

But I do sort of regret not having that university experience because I was going back and forth all the time and I wish I, like, specifically I'm thinking about, I was, I was at university in Leeds for my undergrad and I'm like, I didn't go and walk the Yorkshire mos. Like, it sounds like a ridiculous thing to be, but I'm probably not going back to walk the Yorkshire mos. But I really wish I'd sort of got, I'd celebrated where I was. I think the chance to live somewhere else for a bit is really exciting. I really wish I'd sort of connected with the environment a bit more and even, I don't know, I think that if, you know, you've got your sort of ground of people to come back to and you know, that you, it's not necessarily like you need to make your friends for life in this place.

(: 22:16

I think even meeting with like, okay, what do I wanna do in this local area? You know, because it's maybe because it's local and it's got these specific things or what do I wanna, like what kind of identities do I want to try on for a bit leading with that? And then either you'll meet people there, you know, if you're going to a class or something or you know, an exercise or whatever. Or you can say to people, oh, like I'm going, do you want to come with me? And obviously that's a really bold thing to do, but actually it works quite well. I find, like I've been, I was living in Lisbon for four months at the end of last year coming into this one. And I found a really wonderful thing about about expats is that they're so used to the potential for loneliness in situations that they're, they're able to do that. It's like quite cool American things be like, oh yeah, I'm going to the beach. Welcome to come. People follow, because like, how often are we proactive in this life? How often do we actually wait more often for the lead of other people? So I think, you know, even if it's not a case of needing to replace friends and family back home, it can be a really, again, that, that fertile space can be something about just, you know, doing you for a bit and seeing who might follow and who might not.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 23:25

It's funny you mention Americans there in 2003 I was backpacking around the world with my friend for six months and we found ourselves in San Diego. And she got very, very unwell. just had to lay in bed for a bit and she was like, seriously, don't just don't just watch me be unwell. I'm gonna be okay. I just need to rest. I need to sleep.

Francesca Specter (: 23:46

Yeah. In out, and those, in those tiny rooms as well, you're probably like, okay, maybe I the, maybe it's my time to leave. Oh yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 23:51

Yeah. She's like, you just, you go out and I'll see you in a bit. And I was like, okay. So I went to the cinema I can't even remember what I saw but I was, I'm sitting in the cinema by myself, which is actually the perfect activity to do by yourself cos you're not supposed to speak mm-hmm. During, during performances anyway. And there's a chap on the, on the, just in front of me who's American and he was with what looked like his girlfriend and he was like, oh, hi, like, do you wanna come sit with us? And I was like, no, no, I'm ok. I'm alright. Oh, fascinating. And he said, oh my, my name's Brian. And I was like, oh, hi Brian. And we sort of ended up chatting then he said, oh, at the end of the, the end of the performance at the end of the show, he said, I know this is really, I'm gonna drop the American accent now, but I'm, this is really forward and really weird, but did you wanna come out for dinner with me tomorrow? I really like you. And I was like, I'm really sorry Brian. I would love to, but I'm going to Mexico tomorrow. , it's like the best, the best know. But I often wondered what would've happened, you know, if I'd gone out to dinner with Brian, like, who knows,

Francesca Specter (: 24:55

Was Brian attractive?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 24:57

He wasn't unattractive. Yeah, he unattractive. But yeah. Yeah, I was like, almost as partly was pleased I didn't have to go cos like, you know, , but you know, I think just clearly he was better at yeah. Creating opportunities and seeking those and being quite in the moment I guess.

Francesca Specter (: 25:16

Yeah. Yeah. I think definitely there's an American confidence, confidence there that we don't necessarily have, but then it's so easy to say. But also, you know, I've had solo trips in Paris and more recently Florence, where honestly I've met too many people. And I think that there's something about if you are, you know, if you're by yourself, I dunno if you've ever had that where you've gone to a friend with, sorry, gone to a party with a friend that you or you know, with a partner where where you are, you are just then they're not particularly, they're not particularly outward facing person and you end up sort of in this weird thing where you are the pair of you and you, but you don't actually meet people. It's harder to meet people because you sort of come as a two when you're by yourself in the world, like moving around.

(: 26:02

Things happen in a way that, you know, I think we talk, you know, like there's this whole social media narrative around main character syndrome, but like, you sort of, you are the main character and you do have adventures in a way that you just don't expect because people do feel like they can kind of come up and, you know, ask you to join them for dinner, which, you know, is polarising. I think definitely the cinema, that's a very strange thing to do, , but you, you have these stumble upon occasions and I think we sort of underestimate how much that might happen if we haven't actually been in the experience of being, you know, backpacking soolo or whatever.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:37

Absolutely. And I love a random chat to somebody, like one of the things I missed the pandemic was all the conversations about, you know, cauliflowers and things in Asda or Tesco because strangers just stopped speaking to each other. I think with the mask and with the fear. We just didn't do it in the same way. And I, I just love chatting to random people that you meet along the way and spreading a little bit of joy and learning a bit about strangers as you go about your day. I really like that. But not everybody likes that. I know it's perhaps part of Myone spectrum as well, , but could you tell us a little bit about your wonderful book, please? I know that it was the time, one of the Times book of the year in 2021, wasn't it?

Francesca Specter (: 27:22

Yeah, very, very yeah, very flattered when that came out. in November, 2021. So yeah, it's Soone month is really funny because people quite rightly assumed that it was a, something I came out with in the pandemic that, that, that concept was born. But actually it, it came out of a breakup in which happened at the end of 2018. So I'd, well, I, I'd broken up with a man who was, you know, perfectly wonderful, but, and you know, who, who I thought I would marry. But it, it became quite clear as we got to that sort of, you know, finish line stage that actually that probably wasn't gonna be the case for us. So I had to confront this whole different, this whole path that I just wasn't expecting to, and, and I was living alone and I, I, you know, we'd been planning to move in together.

(: 28:15

A lot of things were changing and in that process I was finding it, I was finding it very hard. And, and also because I was at a time where a lot of my friends were getting engaged and were living with partners and I, I felt very kind of alone in this life stage and I realised that I had this fear of spending time by myself and I was like, wow, this is, this is really, this has really motivated me. This, you know, this, this was the thing that, this was the fear that kept me in that relationship that wasn't quite working out. This is the thing that keeps apparently, you know, sending me into scrolling dating apps on Sunday nights. This is the thing that's making me I dunno, lean on friendships or connections that aren't quite working for me. And I was like, I don't, I don't want to be dictated by this fear, you know, I'd rather sort it out.

(: 29:03

And so I spent about a year hilarious that this happened, pre pandemic, but about a, a year learning to be comfortably alone in my own company and sort of blogging and you know, writing about that, but also just doing it on a sort of very private level. And I came to, I, I I, I came to the point where I'd, I think I'd spoken about it with so many people and I'd, I dunno, I'd, I'd had this conversation with so many people where it did feel like they weren't just saying Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were also saying, wow, we, we relate. And it actually in the meantime started a podcast around that and I was like, wow, I, I think that this needs to be, this needs to be a book. This needs to, it's, it's amazing that this manual wasn't there for me.

(: 29:47

And I, and I kind of would want it to be there you know, for any version of me going through this again. So anyway, so that was where I started. I think I began with honestly just coining the word alonement. So I was like, right, okay, I need to have a shorthand for when I say to people, I spent, you know, I spent a week, a week a weekend evening alone. And they don't say, oh, like, oh, poor you, you know, like, it's not a situation of pity. It's one of triumph. And I started exploring things like, for instance, the work of Dr. Virginia Thomas, she's a researcher in the us. She specialises in something called solitude skills. So learning skills to be comfortably alone, like a lot of the stuff I've touched upon in this episode. So learning to balance social time and solitude and learning to sort of schedule ahead alone, time into your calendar, learning to communicate to others when you need healthy, alone time.

(: 30:51

Learning to emotionally regulate. So doing things like meditation, journaling, getting into that grounded state where you can enjoy other states of alone time without, I dunno, panicking, panicking so much. It's, it's intolerable. And, and all that stuff was, was what ended up going into the book. And then as I say, so I had the podcast and I still have the podcast, and I was having a lot of conversations with people like Alan De Botton, theauthor Poorna Bell former Vogue editor, Alexandra Schulman, and getting lots of different perspectives from people at different life stages, different ages, different relationship statuses about how they had alone time in their own life, how it factored in, how they liked it, how they didn't, how it had changed. And the book ended up as this sort of compilation of that. So it was part memoir part my own reported experience, part sort of expert interviews that I'd done through the podcast and done specifically for the book.

(: 31:52

And part, you know, sort of research into these things. So really just interesting studies. Like for instance, one of them is something called the the spotlight effect, which is a phenomenon I think discovered or at least coined by a researcher called Thomas Gilovich. And he discovered that actually when we're alone in a crowd, we overestimate how much other people are looking at us by quite some way. And I think just having that, having that research, having that phenomenon in your head and knowing that when you are eating alone at a restaurant or something like that, you really, you think that you're sitting there being observed by everyone but you are really not. And, and it, and it is just, it's a comforting thing. And all of that came in together as this deep dive into alone time that has become this manual, this handbook.

(: 32:46

I think it's the accidental breakup manual that people seem to get handed by their, their close friends when they go through a breakup. Although as I say, it's, it's relevant to all. And yeah, that's, that's and I guess in the wake of a pandemic, or at least, I mean, it came out during the pandemic, it came out in March, 2021, that took on a whole new resonance, both for people navigating more alone time than they'd ever been used to before. Or on the flip side, people who were in a, I don't know, cramped into a one bed flat with their partner or, you know, in a house with their kids homeschooling, experiencing alone time or a lack of it in a whole different way and, and putting it on a pedestal in a way that they might not have before.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 33:34

Absolutely. And well done for the work you're doing. And you know, I know that I wish it had been around, you know, earlier in my life cos I, other than a four year relationship, I spent most of my adult life single actually, and trying to feel confident enough to go out and eat dinner by yourself. I'm definitely there now, now I've got children, but I'm married, but I still do really enjoy and enjoy mindfully sitting in a cafe, eating by myself or having a drink and watching other people and just, you know, being part of something, but enjoying that and knowing that that's, that's okay. Mm-Hmm. . Have you got any, just before we finish, have you got any tips or advice for Yeah. For how people can begin to tentatively explore alone?

Francesca Specter (: 34:29

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say baby steps. So, you know, the first thing is to be able to stay spend, I dunno, 10 minutes alone a day. I something that I do, I've done for, called Getting on for about two years now is I use the the car app to do a 10 minute meditation every morning. And that just means that it, it's just this little thing I internalise that knows that I can, I can sit and breathe with my eyes closed and, and I'm safe and that's okay. And it just, it's in the back of my mind as I go throughout my day. And honestly, I, I feel very strange if I haven't done it. So doing that or something like journaling in the, in the afternoon and the evening you know, getting your thoughts out on paper and I think that's a really good exercise as well because you start to listen to yourself a bit more.

(: 35:23

You start to a, it a bit more of a curiosity in your own interests, needs, thoughts, whatever. And b it just, it's, it's almost like, I think it's, it's allowed for me to sort of get my negative thoughts out as well and be aware of my inner critic a bit more. I think just doing things like that which help you sort of meet yourself in a sort of non-threatening time limited way, really important to create that foundation. And I think, you know, once you started practising that a bit more and again, you know, things like, you know, things like going for walks without headphones can be really nice just on a lunch hour, something like that. Once you're sort of practising that a bit more, I think you'll naturally, as I did, you'll get a bit more curious to think, you know, how how far can I take this?

(: 36:11

You know, can I do those things where, I dunno if you, maybe you, you see someone sitting in a cafe by themselves and you think, Ooh, I could never do that. Challenge yourself a bit, you know, it's a bit like exposure therapy. Go and have a coffee by yourself and, and see how that is. And you know, it might be uncomfortable the first time or the second time, obviously. And do try and try to pick a place where you maybe, you know, you know, the barista maybe, or, you know, it's a, a nice environment with a comfortable chair or something like that where, or sofa where you can go and sit. And, and you, you'll find yourself going back and, and getting a bit bolder. And I think, you know, from there on, it really does just, it depends on you, you know, it depends on how you know what your individual needs are.

(: 36:55

You know, say you're a film lover, but you've never had the confidence to go to the cinema alone. You might try that, say you really love the sort of glamorous notion of the solo diner. You might experiment with that. I think, you know, just going and exploring in different ways and also just opening the conversation up with your friends about doing this thing and it, and normalising it. I think that often you can have, you know, I, I've had people in my life where I'll think, okay, they're my sort ofone icon at the moment. Like, I want to be a bit more, a bit more there, a bit more bolder, a bit bolder to do the things that they do alone. And I think it just becomes a really wonderful process of exploration. And yeah, obviously, you know, I'm speaking as if we all have, you know, I'm speak, you know, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who is single lives alone.

(: 37:43

Freelance has quite a lot of freedom over my schedule at this life stage. But I think that alone time can also take on a whole different it's like a commodity. It can take on a whole different sense of value in a stage where you have you know, we have a partner, we have kids where you have a close network of friends who are sort of seeing each other all the time. And I think the, the consideration there, the thing to think about is also just proactively scheduling it in and thinking, okay, this needs, if this is something I'm valuing, like I can schedule in like, you know, an hour or two before I go and meet my friends on a Saturday, or I can, you know, schedule in this time, I can say to my partner like, actually this is something, you know, I quite fancy a night in alone.

(: 38:27

You know, would it be okay if you looked after the kids this evening because I've got, you know, I quite like to experience like a movie alone or whatever. I think it's all those communication things as well. And, and feeling that alonement is a value that's important in and of it in and of itself enough to say it's, it's like, it's the same as saying I have a social plan. You know, it's, it's making that time for you and valuing that enough to give that to yourself without feeling guilt around it. Because, you know, I think that the reassuring thing is the moment you start taking that time for yourself, even if it's just, you know, 10 minutes a day or that choice evening every, every couple of weeks, it really comes back into your relationships with others. It really is a means to then give back more if you need to justify it that way. No one should feel like they have to, but it does seem to work out that way.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:19

I love that. And it sounds wonderfully liberating and empowering actually as a, as a way of life and as a, yeah, just as a movement or yeah, just giving yourself permission to do that.

Francesca Specter (: 39:35

It really is. Especially if you're someone that's told that you only exist in relation to other people. You know, someone that feels like a huge sense of I dunno, I think it's, I, I think, I think it is a gendered thing sometimes. I think women particularly can feel like a sense of sense of guilt if like, you know, they're taking that time for themselves. And I think it's, so it can feel very liberating once you do it. Realise, you know, it's not, no one thinks you're a selfish so-and-so, and actually it's, it's made you a better person for yourself and others as a result.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:10

Yeah. Well, I needed you and your work about 13 years before you before you started doing it, but what I love is that it's there for people now. How can people learn more about you and your work, Francesca?

Francesca Specter (: 40:24

Well, so I I'm on social media as Che Specter, so C h E z Specter on Twitter and Instagram. And for the past seven months, I've een writing a newsletter The Shoulds on Substack. So you can find that just www.francescaspecter.substack.com. And I post for for free and paid subscribers. So sign up to the, to the mailing list, and then that's the best way to sort of keep in touch weekly with I do weekly newsletters and as my, my podcast season eight is coming out in the next couple of months, so I'll be posting sort of bonus content and interviews and things on that. So yeah, lots, lots coming out.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:14

And of course your wonderful book too.

Francesca Specter (: 41:17

Well, yes, , I should really, sorry, I should really apologise to my publisher at that point. Yes. And the book is also available everywhere. Yeah, bookshops Amazon, lovely online, all of those.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:29

I will tag you and pop all the details in the shownotes for how people can reach you as well. But thank you so much for your time. I know this is gonna be really, really soul food for those that need to hear it at the moment and for, for setting out in their new direction, their new lives, for either for a new job or for their new training doctoral courses. So thank you so much for your time. Oh,

Francesca Specter (: 41:55

Thank you. Wonderful to speak to you as ever. Marianne.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:58

What an absolute pleasure and a privilege to speak with Francesca Specter today. Thank you so much for your time, Francesca. I honestly feel so good having spoken to her. We've spoken across the years, we've spoken via voice notes and email and, and social media, but it's really lovely to have finally met her in, in person. Yeah, I hope that you have taken something from our conversation today. I'd love to know what you have taken from it if you'd like to come and connect with me on socials. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere, and there's also the Aspiring Psychologist community on Facebook that you are welcome to come and join and share your thoughts about how this has been insightful for you and perhaps for your clients as well, and how it will shape your thinking. Please do also connect with Francesca as she said, she is, shes Specter on Twitter and on Instagram.

(: 42:57

There'll be a link for her book alonement, how to Be Alone and absolutely own it in the show notes too. If you have got any ideas for future podcast episodes, please do get in touch. Even if you think it might not be a podcast episode, sometimes the questions you ask me evoke the idea of a podcast episode just like today's. I will be back along with your next podcast episode, which will be available from 6:00 AM on Monday. Thank you so much for being part of my world and do be kind to yourself. Take care

Jingle Guy (: 43:41

If you, a psychologist with.