Consultancy, Values and Health Challenges with Dr Liz Gregory

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

Hi, welcome along to today's episode where I am talking to Dr. Liz Gregory, who is a consultant clinical psychologist who has just retired. We are discussing all things psychology, how the career has changed over time, what her clinical passions have been. We also cover her top tips for aspiring psychologists, as well as thinking about navigating work whilst struggling with a physical health diagnosis and all that that entails. Hope you find it so useful.

Jingle Guy (: 00:34

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Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:02

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. I love what we can learn about the psychology profession, and about ourselves from people at different stages of the journey. It's my absolute pleasure to chat with our guest for today's episode, Dr. Liz Gregory. I hope you'll find it useful, and I'll look forward to catching up with you on the other side. If you enjoy this episode, please do subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, like and comment. And if you are listening on podcast, for example, Spotify or Apple, please do rate and review. Hi, just want to welcome our guest for today, Dr. Liz Gregory. Hi Liz.

(: 01:50

Hi. Really nice to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Oh, thank you for saying yes. So you caught my eye on Twitter because you were celebrating your retirement from being a consultant to clinical psychologist, weren't you?

(: 02:02

That's right. Yeah. I retired last week after 32 years in the NHS and 27 years in one Health Board and 21 years as Joint head of Child and Family Psychology Services there in Gwent. Amazing. Well done to you, and I'm sure that so many people, both clients and staff alike have benefited so richly from that real, real dedication to your work. So thank you on their behalf. I'm sure they've also said thank you to you in in your retirement cards and things as well. Yeah, it was a, it was a really lovely event and it was a particularly poignant event because I've spent the last seven months actually being treated for breast cancer. So to, to return and retire and to have all of that acknowledgement, having to really put some distance between myself and work in order just to get on with the job in hand, which was obviously putting my health first made, made it particularly, yeah, poignant I would say and very different to how I'd anticipated it.

(: 03:07

Yeah, absolutely. I hope that you are in better health now. Yeah, absolutely. I've come to the end of my treatment and I've rung the bell, which is the, the kind of punctuation of treatment in cancer services. It's, it's always a tricky one because I think once you've had cancer, you never actually fully believe that you are, you are over it. and I've got my first milestone scan in August, so I'm obviously, you know, anticipating that. But as far as the treatment has gone, it's gone as well as it could. So I'm keeping everything crossed. Amazing. I'm so pleased for you. Thank you. And even when I hear you and others say, you know, I've rung the bell, gosh, it really gets my feels, you know, it's massive, isn't it? It's so significant. It is. It's a really tricky one. And I, you know, I was a bit ambivalent about it, if I'm honest, for, for lots and lots of reasons.

(: 04:01

I think firstly, cos as I say, you never quite feel it's over. Secondly, I never quite know how it feels for the other people in the waiting area who, who may, you know, be a long way from that or may actually not be able to do that. So that's always a bit difficult. But it also felt like an important thing to do for my family who've been supporting me and just to, to, you know, as I say, it's a punctuation and it marks a change of phase is how I see it, rather than a Woohoo, it's all over. I, you know, I don't quite see it like that. Yeah. So it might be that it feels more of a rite of passage for your family, but I love that you're so mindful of what others around you, you know, might make of that.

(: 04:43

Well, once a psychologist yeah. But I, I have worked really hard actually at trying to put myself first through this journey and you, you know, obviously finishing work in order to concentrate on treatment was, was big for me because I've, I've not had a period of sickness as far as I can remember at all. So it, it was quite a big step, but a really, really important one. Yeah. And I guess there's still knowing that we're allowed to be mindful and really pleased that our own health has, has, you know, had a great outcome whilst also being moved by the distress of others. You know, it's that mutual exclusivity, isn't it? You know? Sure. You're allowed to have one and the other. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and cancer's been a real challenge for that one, I think. Mm-hmm. . So tell me a little bit, if you can, about your experience of being treated by the nhs rather than working within it.

(: 05:40

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's been phenomenal, I have to say. And I think you know, I have had a bit of private treatment along the way as well cuz my husband happens to have private care. But it is, it's quite interchangeable when it comes to cancer. And I think you know, every interaction I've had with every member of staff has been just incredible. And I that's not always the case. I know that I'm fully aware of that, but I can genuinely say that from my personal experience. And I guess I'm very grateful for that at a time when I needed it most. and just the, the, the competence and the kindness and the I, I think the reassurance that you are in this system and we know what we're doing and you're gonna go through this, this, this, and this, and you know, it's, it's just been terribly straightforward.

(: 06:33

It's been gruelling. I'm not gonna underestimate that at all. And I've had some really tricky experiences. So when I had my first chemotherapy, I had a neutropenic sepsis response, so had to be admitted very urgently, but again, all part of what they see, or part of what they can anticipate an all part of what they're geared up to address. So it, it really has been pretty spectacular, I have to say. I'm delighted that you've found that to be the case. I really am. And that you've, you know, got good stuff to say and, you know, you've had a good experience and a, and a great outcome. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Can we think a little bit about your career and how that's been for you? So when did you, when did you start deciding that you might want to be a clinical psychologist?

(: 07:25

It's a very long time ago, I have to say. So I did my undergraduate degree and that was a four year degree in psychology in Cardiff. And I chose psychology, I would say, because I didn't know what else to do and I was okay at, at the sciences and I was okay at the arts. So it was, it kind of felt like a good combination type degree. and I kind of went into it and chose a degree with a year in industry or a year a placement opportunity really to help me think about what on earth I was going to do. And I did my year in industry in hr. And it really served a great purpose because it was, you know, a fantastic experience, but I knew it wasn't for me. but I was also, I think I was the first in my family to go to university.

(: 08:16

Didn't see myself as particularly academic at all. And so really wrote myself off the clinical path, which even then was, you know, pretty tough in terms of competitiveness and and who puts themselves through that. So I, I, I felt that wasn't for me, but I honestly didn't know what else I was gonna do. other than it wasn't gonna be HR no disrespect to that at all, but I, it just wasn't a good fit for me. and so I worked for a housing association for adults with learning disabilities. And I think that really introduced me into the world of obviously vulnerable groups, but also empowerment and positive choice and change. And that was very much at the time when the hospitals were closing down and adults were going out into the community. And I just absolutely loved it.

(: 09:13

And then I applied for a job as a data input clerk at a hospital at the time. And it, it was doing research into interventions for people with learning disabilities. And I think I wouldn't dare apply for an assistant psychology post at that time, cos again, I didn't see myself as, as being able and capable of doing that and pursuing that. but the, I didn't get the job but the person on the interview panel said, there is another job and I think you'd be really great for that. So, you know, just I needed that confidence building incentive, I think, to take that step. And so I, I, I got a job as a psychology assistant, absolutely loved it. I mean, I, you know, I shudder now at the level of responsibility assistants were given in those days and, and particularly in learning disability services, because I think that recruitment was really, really tough.

(: 10:09

and so they would fill a gap for a qualified person with an assistant and kind of, you'd be off on your own in a team and, and, and so-called doing the job. But I heard, I learned a huge amount in that job and had, you know, great fun and great support and it gave me the confidence to apply for clinical training. So I applied and I remember I also, you know, assumed I wouldn't get on and I had a car that I was gonna sell and travel, you know, do the kind of year-round travelling around the world. So I felt, I put myself into that position where I had a great alternative, you know, I wasn't gonna be too disappointed. and I got on and that, that was the story. And it was the Plymouth course that I, i I did my clinical training in.

(: 10:56

Amazing. And that all went relatively smoothly, I hope. Yeah, it, yes, I mean, it is, you know, it, it's a challenging course, of course it is. but I would say I, I genuinely enjoyed it. It was a very well organised course. it was one of those courses at the time, and I'm not sure if they still happen in this way, where you get allocated your placement health board or trust as it was at the time. And then you go and do blocks of, of teaching down in Plymouth. So there was a you know, real variety and I suppose a bit of an escape in a different world that you could kind of have a bit of respite from one and go into the other and a bit of respite from that and go into the other. And I, I think that worked really well for me and suited me.

(: 11:43

and it was the first course to get the doctorate, so I think there was a lot of academic pressure, but I think there was a rigour to that that, that I really benefited from. So I remember we had to do on top of a placement case studies and research, we had to do a lot of essays. So one big essay per placement, but also 10 short essays per placement. And I think that gave me a real skill in extracting important information and putting it down and not worrying too much about it, which I think has really, really served me well. cos you, you know, you can pour over for hours on end if you've got one essay, but if you've got 10 you've got a crack on. And I think that that was really, really good training actually. Amazing. So reducing some of that perfectionism just to absolutely done it.

(: 12:33

Perfect. Let's get it passed. Let's go. Definitely. There's gonna be another one in a minute anyway. Absolutely. Yeah. And also that, you know, giving you some real confidence in core competencies and core concepts and core research papers that, you know, that just reading them, you know, obviously you, you get some insight into that, but when you've actually got to pull out that information and extract it, it was good. We moaned about it all the time, don't get me wrong. It, you know, but in hindsight when I look back that, that, that was a good training for me particularly. Yeah. And I think that's where a cohort can really come in, isn't it? You mentioned that you kind of found the compartmentalising quite useful, and I know I did too. And our, our teaching was that it was on a Monday and a Friday with placement days being Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

(: 13:21

So it felt like a really nice cushion either side to kind of do the how was your weekend, all of that jazz, and then go into placement and then come out the other side and go, well, how was it? How's your weekend? Yeah. And so for me, that com compartmentalising but in a really cushioned safe way felt really nice. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great actually. Yeah. So did you continue in what, what they now call intellectual disabilities, but some people do say learning disabilities or did you move into a different clinical specialty once you qualified? Yeah, my, my first role was for children with intellectual disabilities, learning disabilities and particularly an intensive support service for children who whose behaviours were challenging to services. and yeah, that was very intensive and I did that for a year and then I moved to the health board where I've, I've spent the rest of my career.

(: 14:21

So what have you been doing in health board? What's your role been? Yeah. Well I, I, I started as a, what we call a borough psychologist. So there were five boroughs in our region, and each region had one psychologist. So we were very sparse. And it was one of those, you know, again, I think recruitment and resources were a huge factor in this, but you could start as a neuropsychologist at a very junior level, but it was actually a very senior role. So I guess that preceptorship and being supported in the job and developing in the job was something that was absolutely part and parcel of, of you know, what, what the careers were at that time. and I absolutely loved it. It was, it was a great service. It had fantastic values. and I loved the community that you know, was my borough.

(: 15:15

And it was a big sense of responsibility as well in that you know, whatever came through the door, you, you were the psychologist who was gonna be dealing with it. So that, that, that felt huge at the time. But I think a really good experience of kind of learning that that's okay, we've got the skills we can apply them to whatever the, the dilemmas are and kind of taking a breath and not feeling you've got to fix everything. but that the, the skills you bring are about curiosity and understanding and taking time and being alongside. so it was a fantastic training in in, in, I suppose that aspect of the job as well as the huge variety of, of issues that families might present with at any one time. Yeah, I think that's gonna be really useful advice for anybody listening to this as well, because the nature of this beast that we work in is that you're gonna have many placements or many roles and you've got to be able to sort of just run with it.

(: 16:15

And I know when I first qualified, I thought I was going to be sort of getting kid gloves and that it would be quite leisurely start, but no, they'd be waiting me for me for months. So they were keen for me to run with it. And they said, you are in a, in the nicest possible way, they were really nice about it, but you are qualified. We trust you to do this. Yeah, absolutely. You need to go out there there and do the job. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's such an important aspect of our training that we, we need the confidence to, to be reassured. We've been doing this for a very, very long time, and what we're bringing is those skills, not a magic wand, not the answer, and not the years of experience on the job that other people in the team have.

(: 16:58

so trusting that it is about that difference that we bring and that that's valued and valuable is, is a really important part of the job, I think. I think so. But I found that really empowering actually, that they weren't saying, well, you're not quite finished yet. You know they were saying, you know, go out there, do it, smash it, and if there's any problems, just bring 'em back here and we'll talk about it in supervision. Exactly. Absolutely. So you must have seen your fair share of aspiring psychologists, assistant psychologists, trainees, psychologist, newly qualified psychologists across your career. how's that been for you watching the profession change over time? Yeah, it's been fabulous. I think it's been one of the most exciting parts of the job is that you know, seeing the journey that people are, and we've often had people who've come as placement students, then come back as assistants, then come back as qualified staff.

(: 17:57

So I just love that full circle and also that message to us as a service, that we were getting it right enough that they wanted to come back and that you know, that we supported them on that journey. So I've, I've really, really enjoyed that. I think the changes, it's, it's really tough because when you're in it, you don't kind of notice the, the stepwise changes. And I think one of the things that we've been passionate about in our service is that the core values remain. So the things that I was saying 20 years ago that are important for children and families are still important for children and families. But you know, I hope that we're a very broad church in our service and that psychology is a very broad church and that we're continuously learning and that curiosity and not thinking we've got the answer but that we keep learning and we, we keep open.

(: 18:51

Being open to new ideas, new ways of working, new ways of thinking is just part and parcel of I think what we've tried to promote in our service. And I think it's, I think it's absolutely vital. yeah. And, and I feel passionately about that and I feel really proud of our profession for that, that it's, there's not an end point where we're, and, and, and not to feel bad about what you didn't know before, that that's all part of the process. And our job is to bring the knowledge base that we have now to the difficulties that people are experiencing and see how that fits. But to never think this is the answer and you need to do this in order to solve your problem. So it, you, you know, it fits quite well with the evolving nature of the profession, I think.

(: 19:35

Hmm. I definitely shutter when I think about my first experience of offering therapy in a youth prison, cos I was rubbish, rubbish, but I was still doing the best I could with the skills and resources I had at that time. And it was still useful for the clients that were getting that. It's just, I know I'd do a much better job Well, of course. And, and, and wouldn't we all, and you know, and I think in child psychology and as a parent, you know, that's the, that's e exactly the feeling. It's like, if I knew then what I know now, but I didn't, and I did everything with the absolute best intention. and also you, you know, I talk about the, the values that endure the most powerful value, I think is the power of the relationship. and if you are working hard at creating relationships, it doesn't matter where you are on your career trajectory, that's going to be the most powerful ingredient in any therapeutic change.

(: 20:30

Yeah. And I'm a parent as well. I've got two young boys. They are, they're gonna want me to say what they almost are, so almost 10 and almost seven. and for me, one of the most important things I can do is to repair any ruptures that crop up between myself when I haven't quite lived to my values of how I want to parents. Absolutely. But also encouraging them to repair ruptures rather than just gloss over them. Because I think that's really, really important. And we can absolutely learn to do that with clients as well, can't we? To repair any ruptures in our relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, and obviously our, our relationships with professions, with teams, with, with other services, it's exactly the same as that. That we are on a journey together and we're open to learning. and we, and if, if we've got it wrong, then it's absolutely our job to, to let people know that, but that we're open to to, to doing, to doing differently next time.

(: 21:28

Can I hear a bit more about the core values, the things that you think are really incredibly important when working with children, young people and families? Yeah. I mean, I think our job as psychologists is to really promote, promote that relational, developmental, contextual understanding of children's distress. and, you know, to kind of see that as our role, regardless of the presenting problem, those things are, are, are absolutely critical to our understanding. and obviously from a rights-based approach, children's rights, the importance of hearing their voice empowerment, but also I think the importance of their context, the family the system around them and the vehicles for change that they have in their wider system is absolutely pivotal to our work. and, and really kind of more significant often than children who are often in a very disempowering role and can't affect the changes that will, will make the difference to them.

(: 22:33

and also most importantly, I think that every child is unique. So if you've, you know, if you've seen this before then to, you know, it's not gonna be helpful to go into a situation thinking, you know, and you understand, you've got to be curious and open to understanding it from their perspective and that it's impacting them very differently to how it might have impacted somebody else. And that's not to dismiss the importance of you know, knowing about an area, understanding it, having been through that journey before. But I think that all has to be in the background and you've, the foreground has to be that this is a unique, unique child with a unique family, with a unique set of circumstances. And your job is to really listen and understand that and fit what you've got to offer with, with the strengths of that situation for them.

(: 23:30

Yeah. I think a really powerful question can be, well, how is that for you? Cause then you're getting their unique stance, aren't you? Absolutely, absolutely. Lovely. So thinking about career progression, of course you got onto being a consulting clinical psychologist. How does that work? What's, what, what does that involve? Gosh, well again, that was a long time ago. And I think it's fair to say that, as I say, my first my first job was quite brief. I was there for a year and then I joined a service that really aligned with my values. And I absolutely loved the work. And the manager at the time was retiring. And so it was that dilemma of I love where I work and there's the potential that somebody knew is going to come in and change where I work, or I could put my hat in the ring.

(: 24:24

and, and that felt like a big step for me. I was, I think I was, you know can't remember, I was about 33 at the time and I was pregnant with my first child. You know, it was the most rubbish time for thinking that I might go into that leadership role. but a colleague of mine was having exactly the same dilemma and was in a similar state of stage of life. In fact, she had three under the age of five. So the last thing she wanted was to be ahead of child psychology. And so we had one of those tentative conversations about, well, what could we do? Could we do it together? And we came up with a plan of going putting ourselves forward as a job share. And I've been job sharing with Rachel for 21 years.

(: 25:12

so I think it was, it was a really gentle step into what is a huge, can be a huge leap. And to, to be able to do that together with somebody and to you know, when you are feeling absolutely overwhelmed and like you're outta the depth for them to say, no, it's fine. We're gonna break it down and this is the next thing that we're gonna do. And for you to do exactly that for them, I think really helped us in the early days. and I think that the, the job sharing thing was so important also in giving us confidence, courage bravery, you know, when, when things were getting tougher. cos the health service has been through all sorts of journeys along that along the way. so yeah, I think, I think I was fortunate that that timing coincided with someone who I felt I could do the job with.

(: 26:05

and that really helped what can be quite a big transition. I dunno if that answers your question. It does. It does. And thinking about the, you know, what a privilege and pleasure to have cultivated that depth of relationship with your colleague over these 20 years as well. Absolutely. It's, it's, it's brilliant and, you know, there's huge sadnesses that that's come to an end, but it's the sort of relationship where we're just delighted we can actually have some fun together now and not, you know, we've all, we've had a lot of fun along the way, but we can only have fun. That's the only nature of our relationship now. So that's, you've, you've graduated Exactly. It's a different level of your relationship. Exactly. So that's brilliant. But I know, I think in fact it was really interesting at our, at my retirement due our heads of service for psychology, also job share.

(: 26:53

And apparently we were the inspiration for, for, for, for their relationship to, to, to take it that you know, to, to pursue that particular way of working. and I think it's just such a useful model for all sorts of reasons. particularly if you have children and you'd prefer to work part-time, it it means that when you're not in work, somebody else is. And I think that allows work to be more in its place, which is a huge privilege a actually in a job like ours, which can feel all consuming at times. Mm-hmm. Sounds like you're trailblazers and permission givers, but also, you know, everyone else Yeah. Can do, they can function without you. The world can go on. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's right. I, I, and I was very fortunate actually in that I had a career break during that time and was supported to have a career break, both by my organisation but also by my, a job share partner who stepped up into the role.

(: 27:53

you know, she was at a stage in her life where that felt possible. so it just gives that little bit of flexibility. and I went to Canada for two and a half years back in 2014. And I, and I think, you know, for me that gave me a completely different experience and meant I came back into the role fresher with new ideas and with new energy. So I think it really served a useful function at all sorts of levels. So were you working when you were in Canada or was that a career break? It was a career break. My husband's work took us out there. and I did look into working, but you have to have a particular, you have to re-qualify to work in different areas of Canada. And they all have different criteria. And I think even my work visa meant I couldn't work in health and education cos there's no gaps that needed to be filled there in, in Canada.

(: 28:47

So I took it as permission not to work. but I, and I kept ourselves very busy with, you know, making the most of that opportunity. And I had young school-aged children, which obviously mm-hmm , it took a bit of sort sorting out as well. But I did volunteer and I volunteered for Roots of Empathy, which is a Canadian programme. It's now worldwide, but it's started in Canada and it brings a baby and a parent into the classroom and helps children learn about their own emotional worlds by learning about the emotional world of the baby. And it, it's an evidence-based intervention that reduces bullying and increases pro-social play. So I didn't quite switch off from my world, but I you know, it was a, it was a hugely rewarding volunteer role to do and absolutely aligned to my values and it's something that I've been passionate about bringing over here to the UK and it's now in, in, in, in the region where I worked.

(: 29:52

and it, you know, it's just a great programme on all sorts of levels, but again, it really fits with what I think is important for children to experience. I haven't heard of Roots of Empathy. That sounds fascinating. Yeah, it's, it's brilliant. It's got a, a really good website and really great support from a whole range of areas, particularly psychological and social you know, neuro neurodevelopmental aspects. It sort of goes in on the why love matters type approach by Sue Gerhardt. Is that, that the right vein that I'm in it. Yes. And also you know, just the power of relationships. Exactly. And why you know, what, how important it is to understand your own emotional world in order to understand the emotional world of others is is absolutely central to it. But it's, it's great fun as well.

(: 30:51

And obviously the teacher has a great experience because they're able to stand back a bit and the instructor takes that particular aspect of the class. and the parent and the baby have a fantastic experience because you literally as a mom or dad walk into a classroom and 30 children just delight in your baby, and the baby delights in the children. And, and one of the most powerful things about it, which really struck me, and I'd read about it when I'd done my research on it, but to see it happen in the classroom was extraordinary that the baby somehow homes in on the most vulnerable children. And I think and delights in them and, and, and I think, you know, probably that's the unconditional regard that the baby has for anybody who shows them delight. And for that child who maybe is used to being seen in a particular way or being in trouble or, you know, whatever it happens to be, to have a baby just respond and receive them and delight in them is really powerful too.

(: 31:57

It's, it's a, it's really, it's a great programme. Absolutely. It sounds, yeah, it sounds incredible. It sounds incredible. Thank you for letting me know about that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a little bit of a research on that one. could you offer any advice or guidance for aspiring psychologists you think might be useful? Yeah, I mean, I think I, I I think if you are absolutely passionate about it, don't give up because I've seen so many psychologists take, you know, a bit of time to, to get on the path and, and, and then they do. So I think that that's one bit of advice, but I think you've gotta know that it's right for you because it can feel a bit relentless and unforgiving if it, you know, if it doesn't work out. So I think that that's one bit of advice.

(: 32:49

I suppose the main thing I would say, and I think this is a really hard one to really trust and believe is to be yourself. That actually you know, that's the thing that comes across most strongly is your, your passion, your internal drive about why you want to do this particular job. Your, your your values. you know, and, and not to feel that you have to be the expert at all. But as I was saying earlier, that openness and that curiosity and that continuous learning is, is really, really important, particularly at that trainee stage, I think. but you know, I genuinely think it's really important throughout the whole career trajectory. Lovely, that's brilliant, helpful advice. Thank you. What's next for you, Liz? What comes next at this? Yeah, the o opposite end of, of the clinical psychology career.

(: 33:46

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the, there's lots of reasons why I chose to take the opportunity to finish now. but I think one of the main ones is that I've still got some gas left in the tank. I didn't want you know, I didn't want to end tired or, you know, at, at, at the end of my energy levels for the job. and, and thought now was a good time to press pause. I think the cancer diagnosis has obviously brought lots of things into sharp relief and the need to have the summer off and not do very much and just catch up with myself really and what the last year has meant. cos I've literally just finished, you know, I had my last consultation with the oncologist last week, so I'm very, very new to the end of the journey.

(: 34:37

And I think ironically the end of the journey is the hardest bit because you're out on your own. I think it's terribly reassuring to have anybody prepared to take a look at a lump or a bump or listen to your worry when you are in the medical environment, but it's really tough when you are out the other end of it. and you know, I I, I'm gonna be doing some, I've signed up for a moving forward course for example, which, you know, helps you with that stage. And you know, obviously as a psychologist, I know lots of the stuff, but I think to to, to go there as me having been through cancer and hear it afresh and to look for those little nuggets that I'm sure will be there is gonna be really helpful, but also really interesting to be on the other end of that.

(: 35:26

And then I'm just gonna see what emotions is, is the moving forward course for cancer patients or for people that are retiring, it seems like, no, it could be for both. It could be, couldn't it? I'm sure there'll be lots and lots of yeah bits that will resonate for both of those stage. You know, it's a life stage and in fact, I, I had my surgery the day before my youngest child left home to go to university, so I've had a lot of, you know, big life events, milestones happen. Exactly. Huge milestones. So I, I think I need that time just to catch up with myself and see, you know, what was that all about and where am I now? so I'm looking for, so the moving forward specifically for health is that it's, it's, it's specifically, sorry, I'm, I've not been clear.

(: 36:12

It's specifically for people who've had a primary breast cancer. So it's, it's kind of designed specifically around that, although I'm sure as I say, the general themes will very much resonate. Yeah. And I think you know, there's different parallels with the work we do as psychologists as well. Cause of course there's long waiting lists for, for mental health as well. And then when they're, when they're better, they, they no longer sort of meet our access criteria and so they graduate out of our service, then they're like, oh, but now what I trusted you, I like this relationship and it's totally how we go forwards. Totally. Yeah. I mean that one of the, just thinking about our service and how it's developed over the years, one of the things I feel most proud about is that we've really challenged that idea of you need to meet a threshold and then and then you have your treatment and then you are out model of working with children and families who are experiencing mental health difficulties because it just doesn't fit.

(: 37:13

It's just, you know, it doesn't fit with their development, which means they're changing all of the time. It doesn't fit with when you need that help at a particular point in time. So we've developed a lot of services and you know, based on the principle of No wrong door and that's really about empowering all professionals in children's lives to feel more confident and competent to be able to manage things, having quick and easy access to expertise, so the helplines dropping groups, all of those sorts of things as well as obviously when those things don't work specific interventions that, that are evidence-based. But also one of our kind of key hopes is that we've developed services that that really empower all professionals to feel confident and competent in this area. it's not a separate thing, but actually teachers in school youth workers, the police, anybody who comes into children and young people feels that they've got a bit of an understanding and demystifying what mental health is.

(: 38:21

So yeah, I, I feel really proud of that aspect of it, that we've really moved away from, you know, waiting times being the thing that determines whether or not you get help or not, and meeting a particular criteria a particular way at a particular point in time, which is the least helpful thing for children and families. I think it's the power of upskilling as we go along and the consultancy model, isn't it, and spreading a little bit of what we know, you know, far and wide so that it kind of becomes self-perpetuating really. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just about knowledge, it's about availability as well. So I think that, you know, we know this as psychologists, don't we, that we can get trained in something and feel confident and competent on that day, and then something will throw us or, and we, and we'll feel like we've lost that.

(: 39:11

So I think it's that continuous opportunity to have drop-in supervision consultation feel that you, there's somebody at the end of the phone just that support that I think we are really privileged in our profession to prioritise, but other professions just don't have that. and so we're very keen to build that level of support and supervision and advice and consultation into every aspect of, of, of children's lives. Really amazing. Thank you so much for spending your time, one of your first weeks of retired life with us helping guide us through your career and what's been really important and offering your best advice and wishing you the very best with this next stage of your career. And may your health continue to be vibrant. Thank you. That's really kind and it's been a an absolute privilege. Thank you. Thank you.

(: 40:06

Thank you so much to our guest for today. It was an absolute pleasure speaking with Liz and, and I find myself thinking, oh, I'd love to have been Liz's trainee or Liz's assistant. I feel like I would've really been nurtured really well and guided through the process. So I hope that you, whoever you are working with, I've got a good relationship with your supervisors and I hope you found Lizzie's advice and guidance and wise words really useful. I'd love to know what you think to this episode. Do come along to join me on my socials. I'm Dr. Maryanne Trent everywhere. You can also catch up with me in the Aspiring Psychologist Community Free Facebook group. I will look forward to delivering the next episode of the podcast, which is available from Monday, 6:00 AM. Until then, thanks for being part of my world. Take care and be kind to yourself.

Jingle Guy (: 41:10

If you're looking to become a psych, then.