From Radiography to Psychology | It’s Never Too Late to Change

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

Imagine spending years in a career only to realise the part that truly lights you up isn't what you are trained to do. That's what happened for today's guest, , who worked in radiotherapy helping cancer patients through life-saving treatment. But it was when she supported patients' mental health, calming panic attacks, easing fear, and helping them feel safe that she realised where her real purpose was. So with a family, a mortgage and a steady career, she decided to start again. In this episode, we talk about what it really takes to retrain later in life, the fear, the finances, the family juggle, and the freedom that comes from finally doing something that aligns with your values. If you've ever wondered whether it's too late to change direction, this episode might just be the permission slip you need. Hope you find it really useful if you do like and subscribe for more. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I'm Dr. Marianne. I'm a qualified clinical psychologist, and today I'm joined by our guest, Munisha, who is a psychological wellbeing practitioner. Hi Munisha.

Munisha (: 01:14

Hello, Marianne.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:16

Thank you so much for being here and for helping us to expand the narrative that it's always okay to listen to your inner kind of thoughts, feelings, maybe even sometimes even bodily sensations that maybe the career you are in is not for you and retraining, regardless of your age is an option worth exploring. Could you tell us a little bit about your history and where you are at Munisha?

Munisha (: 01:49

Yeah, so I suppose I've always had a passion for psychology, for mental health, for helping others and understanding others for a long time. And initially I suppose I wanted to do psychology, but didn't feel like it was quite right when I originally went to university to do it. So I decided to train in radiotherapy, which is treating cancer patients and helping them to get through radiotherapy treatment. So it is been a really rewarding role in career because I've been able to help others and that's kind of something I strongly value. So I suppose in my natural career progression, I've kind of moved up in my job and I guess I've always thought the purpose of that was to get to the next step. And I think once I kind got to that kind of final position of where I want it to be, I started to think, actually, I'm not really sure.

(: 02:45

Is this for me? Is this what I want going forward? And I started training in various things of where I place more value. So that was in supporting cancer patients with their mental health to help get through treatment and people who struggle with anxiety, depression, claustrophobia. So helping them to manage. And I really, really felt for those patients and thought, you know what? I want to do more here. And my passion is actually more about helping people with a mental health, then not necessarily treating them. Obviously I wanted to do that, that was part of my job, but I felt like my focus has shifted or maybe was always there, but kind of didn't listen to those niggles along the way that was pushing me in that direction.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:32

So if people are like, oh, thought radiographer was someone that X-rays broken bones, that's not quite what you've been trained in, that's not quite what you were doing, is it?

Munisha (: 03:44

No. So diagnostic radiotherapy is a little bit different. So those are the people who x-ray patients for different things, radiotherapy. So a therapeutic radiographer is someone who will treat cancer patients going through the treatment of radiotherapy. So for example, different patients, cancer patients might have different treatments such as chemotherapy. So radiotherapy is one of the treatments that for using ionising radiation to treat a patient's cancer basically.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:18

Thank you. That's really helpful. And it's reminded me of when my dad was having cancer treatment, he had to have it on his esophageal cancer. I think he had some sort of mask made for his face, which,

Munisha (: 04:30

So that's sometimes why some patients can feel a bit claustrophobic because they have to be laid in a mask on the bed that's kind of pinned down to the bed and they've got to be still to have their radiotherapy treatment.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:45

So just remind us or just illuminate us them. What's the function of that mask? Is that just to immobilise the patient or is there some magic that happens?

Munisha (: 04:54

Yeah, so to all patients will have certain immobilisation to keep them still in the bed. Obviously if we're using radiation, we don't want to miss what we're treating or we don't want to. It's very accurate, very precise, and it's becoming more targeted. So we have immobilisation is to help keep the patient in the correct position for their treatment, but they do also have images taken as well to again, check that we're in the right position. We're happy that their position is consistent throughout their treatment. Some patients can come for one treatment and some patients can come for a course of radiotherapy.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:33

I see. So the mask would be kind of fixed to the bed where they're having the treatment so that they can't move. So yeah, I can absolutely understand why that might feel claustrophobic. Yes. Okay. So that's even in this listening to this podcast, people are able to help think about their own upskilling, their own knowledge, but of course we're also thinking about yeah, that you recognise that maybe some of the more therapeutic aspects were just hitting different for you.

Munisha (: 06:04

And I think when I went into radiotherapy initially, so there are those two routes, I wanted to do more of the therapeutic side for that reason. But I suppose because cancer is becoming, there's more and more people experiencing cancer, so focus is on getting patients through treatment and obviously there's waiting time. So the priority is to get cancer patients through their treatment and less I'd say focus on psychological side of the impact of that on cancer patients, especially going through treatment. So as part of what we call the patient support team who then specialise in helping cancer patients get through treatment who was struggling. So it's just giving them that extra sort of support through their treatment. It might be talking to them beforehand, but really it's about providing them support to get on the bed to get through their treatment. So people who might have panic attacks or who might feel very anxious to help calm them down. So it's like talking to them over the income, doing some breathing. And for some patients we did some graded exposure when they're experiencing the mask and struggling with that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 07:19

Thank you. And how lovely that you have been able to see the distress in the client be moved by that distress and want to help them to get through essential treatment. It really matters, doesn't it? The engagement of this treatment being successful means that they will get hopefully more days, more weeks, more months, maybe even more years, more decades sometimes to live life, to be part of their own life.

Munisha (: 07:48

I think it's a real struggle if someone's really struggling with their mental health and then they can't go through treatment because they're struggling so much to get through with their mental health. And I think that's really difficult for anyone going through any sort of health condition or treatment, but then to have that kind of, or maybe feel like they don't have that option because of their mental health and struggling with that, it just didn't quite sit right with me. And I think I wanted to help people to be like, actually, you can do this. And I feel like I'm quite a compassionate person. So I think that sometimes we all just need a little bit of help and support and we can get through with that kind of help. Right, support. So I think how we are as professionals can make a big difference and a big impact on other people, and it's sometimes just the little things that we can do. So yeah, I think that's really important.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:51

Absolutely. Absolutely it is. And they deserve to have a good experience, but also you deserve as a clinician to feel like you are living your best life as well. So how old were you when you started to actively pursue retraining options?

Munisha (: 09:11

I suppose when I had my child, so around 2017, I actually trained to be a coach in the NHS, so I trained as a coach and I was super passionate about that because again, it allows me to help people to reach their goals. And again, that was something that I was really passionate about. And then I brought that into the service to also help. So that'd be helping staff in the wider trust, but also I wanted to help people in our department who wanted to look at their career progression. And again, with interviews, sometimes people would feel quite anxious going through an interview. So supporting them in different ways where that kind of, I suppose mental health kind of creeped in as well. So that was another thing that I started doing there. So I think that really, I suppose having that time out when I was off on mat leave kind of made me think, oh, do you want something a bit more?

(: 10:11

And I want to be doing more of where I'm focused on helping people, but helping people get through to the other side. So that I think probably started things off really. And I suppose that's kind of what has led me to there, but I think I've always had that, what I've been told about career, you get your next level and you just keep on going. And I think sometimes we don't stop and think, is this really what I want and is this what I want to do because it doesn't have be or you just keep on going up the career ladder. Does that fit in line with your values, your purpose? And I think those are the things to sit and consider.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:56

Yeah, and it's also as you go up that career ladder, your standard of living probably and your salary and your banding gets higher, and then you've obviously got a dependent as well. You've got your son who's probably around eight years old and they are not cheap. Keeping them in robuck alone is difficult. And then when you're thinking about retraining into a psychology career, you're like, this is probably going to involve quite the pay cut. So there's often lots of factors involved.

Munisha (: 11:31

Yeah, definitely. So I think with psychology, it's always kind of be there, do I go and I kept seeing things or thinking, but again, I was thinking of that pay cut and how I manage with that. But I suppose one big thing that did have an impact on my career was my health. I struggled with my health a lot and I knew that I needed things to be a bit differently. And I also believe sometimes that your health search sometimes might show up when you're kind of not fully aligned with where you are at as well. So I learned through my health journey that actually my health was probably having an impact because things weren't really truly in line. And again, I knew that I needed to do something, but I think it took my health to really be like, no, I've got to make a change and do something.

(: 12:26

And it's taken that for me to really realise, I think I would've still made a change, but I think I was dizzying for a while and that was the kind of final deciding thing that actually I want to be able to work from home. I want to be able to pick up my child from school just if, yeah, and I want that kind of, I want to feel joy when I come to work. I'm not saying that I didn't, but I think I was losing that a little bit because I wanted to do more of the supporting patients with their mental health and less of the other side of my job, which was the main part of the job. So I think that was kind of a bit of a wake up call as well. And I did think when I was thinking about career changes and options, that was one of the things, the salary.

(: 13:13

But I suppose in that position, something had to give a little bit, and I thought, there's so many options when you come into this world, there's so many options. And okay, there's going to be a pay cut. Can I manage with that? Yes, I can. It's a funded course that I did, so that was even better. And I'm training on the job, so I get a job as long as I pass, which I did. I get a job at the end of it. And then after that, there's so many different options for me to progress, and I've done it before so I know that I can do it again. So if I'm going to change my career and do all that, I felt like now is the time to do it rather than waiting even longer when I know that I'm not happy. I couldn't see myself in my job in the next five years, 10 years, and I thought, well, I need to make that change.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:07

It sounds like your drive, so drive is so important to us and it actually can help us to do really difficult things, just energised by that. But your drive and definitely diminished for the work which then brings, it just feels a bit more and it feels like it takes more from you, which again, ultimately can impact on you holistically, which I think sounds like what you'd experienced. And you then got onto the funded psychological wellbeing practitioner course. Were you able to do that straight from what you were doing from the degree that you'd done, or did you have to do any kind of conversion for that?

Munisha (: 14:49

Yeah, no, so I was very lucky actually because I was able to go straight from my course to doing this, and they will actually, there's always loads of applicants. So there were a hundred applicants for my job and training. So I was luckily one of the two to get through to that based on the experience that I had had. So I'd had some mental health first aider training, I'd worked and supported cancer patients with their mental health. I'd done a lot of work in the trust with black and ethnic minority champions and setting those up. So our work is very an inclusive practise and works on the community and how we can get more access to people wanting to access mental health. So all those things that I had done really played a part in getting me that application and getting through that process. So I think I was quite lucky, not lucky because I'd done the work, but it was enough. And I'd also have a friend who is a clinical psychologist who also what used to be a radiotherapist and had gone through that journey. So again, just a little bit of help and support to get me through as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:04

Amazing. And when you can see it, you can be it. So actually that that's possible. So it's interesting to think actually if people are watching this, I really want to do something in mental health that actually not having a psychology undergraduate degree or a master's conversion is not a barrier to becoming A PWP, which is really, really important. If you were, I'm not going to say that you are, but if you wanted to then go on and become a trainee clin psych or to do something like that, I guess you would need to do a conversion masters to have that kind of stamp of approval from the BP bps. Is that what you understand? Munisha?

Munisha (: 16:45

As far as I know, I think that's what you'd need. A conversion masters I think have, there needs to be something like that in place to further that ahead, but I think it gives you a really good understanding and a baseline and a good level of experience of not that role, but the extent of the role. It's a very good baseline start. I would say if someone wants to go in that direction, I think that this course would be a very good foundation.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 17:19

Great. And once you are qualified as a PWP, essentially, you would be able to go on and become a CBT therapist or something like that as well, is that right?

Munisha (: 17:31

Yeah, that's correct. So you can train, again, you generally need a core profession, but you can do a conversion. So then you can do the funded course after, you've got to have at least a two years gap, but then you can do a funded course to train as a cognitive behavioural therapist. And that's a year's training from what I understand then. Yeah, so then you can train to be a cognitive behavioural therapist, and there's other roles in terms of being a senior or lecturing other things that you can do as well from this. But again, that would then open up certain possibilities being a cognitive behavioural therapist as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 18:14

And if anyone's watching this and going, why do I need a two year gap? It's because if you've received Health education England funding or health education Scotland, maybe even Health Education Wales as well, you need to have given two years of not having funded of being qualified before you draw on any future training. And the same is true for people accessing clinical psychology funded doctorates as well, that you need to have had two years. What it's worth saying is that you don't necessarily have to have worked in that qualified capacity as a PWP, you could go and do something different work in a different role. It's purely just the funding that you've got to have at least those two clear years from when you training finishes and the next one starts. So tell us then, Munisha, what is it like for you having got there? How old are you currently? Munisha?

Munisha (: 19:14

So I'm 42. Yeah. So yeah, it is not being an easy journey, I'd say for sure.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:20

Yeah. And how is it then, being 42 and relatively recently qualified as a PWP, do you love it? Was it worth it?

Munisha (: 19:30

Oh yeah, no, definitely. It's definitely worth it. It was definitely the right thing to do, and I think those little nudges that are listened to were definitely in the right. I never thought why, well, sometimes I did think why have I done this when I was studying, but not more. So I always knew that it was the right decision. It wasn't easy at all. I think changing careers later on in life, having a family working and studying is really tough and it is a really intense call. She kind of told that before you start, but I think until you go through it, you don't really realise how difficult it is. And then when you are trying to juggle lots of different things. So yeah, definitely being very organised and managing your own, I think throughout the course is really, really important because it is really tough.

(: 20:17

But I think because it's for a year, you can see that end in sight a lot quicker than if it was a longer course. So yeah, now I think it's trusting that you have the capability and the ability to do those things. Once you've got the interview and you are going through it, you've been assessed, you've got those skills, you can do it, can get through it. And I think it's having that trust in yourself, that belief in yourself, that each thing is going to be difficult, but you'll get through it. Sometimes the shift in certain things that have happened along the way, getting used to doing treatments with clients, getting used to doing assessments with clients, there's a period where you think, oh my God, no, I cannot do this. How am I going to be able to do all of this? But then you do, and it shifts along the course.

(: 21:05

There's those little shifts you learn a bit more and it's the next thing, how am I going to get through supervision and do all my cases? And then it's the next thing. Then just again, as the caseload increases, it's those little shifts, but always remembering, you know what, I'm here for a reason. I've got through and I can get through. So I think it's just having that belief in yourself and using the support that you have around you, because this field is a very supportive and compassionate field, and I think pulling on those support that you've got to get you through as well. I had a lot of difficulty and personal circumstances, so I did need a lot of support, and it did mean extending my deadlines to kind of get through. But there's no shame in that. If you need the help and support, go get it. We need it as much as anybody else.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 21:51

Absolutely. And if people are listening to this and they're like, oh, I'm not quite sure that I'll necessarily meet the academic standards of putting in my case presentations or my essays or my assignments or my reflective pieces, whatever it is, is there support from the academic centre for writing or your tutors to help you meet the expectations?

Munisha (: 22:16

There's a lot of support even for writing. There's like skills at university, there's loads of different support that you can do. There's from time management to organising, there's lots of support and it's just about accessing that support. You told about it, but then sometimes people don't access it. I used it and I thought it was really helpful and it helped me to get through the course and different things that I was finding difficult. Everyone is really supportive, so nobody wants you to fail. So there is the support there. It's just about I think accessing it and utilising it and taking on the advice that you're given and using that really.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 22:56

Yeah, absolutely. And I think even when I was on training, so I think I was 27 when I started and there was a 40-year-old and a 43-year-old, and that was quite radical at those times. But actually it was really important for the cohort, but also for those people to not invalidate themselves, to not think, oh, I'm too old. I've passed my time. We all deserve to thrive. We, and with the idea that maybe retirement is maybe a thing that may or may not ever happen for us, if we're going to carry on working, maybe we're choosing to carry on working, then we deserve to be fulfilled in what we do is what I would say. Would you agree, Monisha?

Munisha (: 23:48

Oh yes, definitely. I think life's for living. Who wants to spend their time at work and feel miserable? Well, I definitely don't. So I think if you feel like that, then that's a definite sign to something needs to change or something needs to give. Unless you can feel happy and content there being in that same environment, then fine. Then my advice would be to carry on. But if you're not happy, then there's nothing worse than spending your time at work, not feeling happy with what you're doing. So that would be a big sign to kind of do something different and change. And even at my age, I never think that I'm too old to do anything. I don't see age as a thing. I feel quite young inside. But yeah, obviously you've got different things to consider at an age in terms of finances, potentially children or other responsibilities that people might have. So it's not easy, but it's not impossible, either you can do it and I think now's perfect time. You know what you want.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:01

Yeah, maybe rather than trying to push down that thought that maybe I want to do something different, allow it some oxygen,

(: 25:10

Actually, if I was to take myself seriously, if I was to give myself permission to do this, to fulfil this career aspiration, and if I was to really think about maybe it's okay for me to choose what I do, maybe some of the other choices I've made have made sense at the time. But now the age I'm at right now, maybe it's okay for me to empower myself to meet my own needs, to put myself first and to know that all of the people around me will actually be happier and thrive more if I am authentically thriving.

Munisha (: 25:50

And I think what I did is I started to think about what is it about my job that I like and what is it that I don't like? Or to try and kind of filter out what is it that lights me up? What am I liking? What do I see in other jobs that I think, oh, I might want a bit of that. And that kind of really helped me. But I think I always have that knowing in terms of psychology and mental health and that support really was always there. And sometimes I think it always is. It's just if we're listening really.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:22

Yeah. Okay. And do you think reflective journals are helpful? Did you keep any notes at work about the things that lit you up when you felt really good?

Munisha (: 26:33

I had notes on my phone. I'd keep a little bit of a positive log, so I'd look for the feedback I'd get or anything that had really light me up. And I think having all that kind of evidence was kind of telling me these are the things that I'm good at and that's where my skills are. And this is, I think it gives you those signals for your direction and where to go and all of that. And I felt like more of that was coming away from radiotherapy for me. So everything started being like the coaching, even the inclusive practise in terms of the champions, it was all linked to radiotherapy, but it wasn't the main bread and butter. So that was my biggest sign that actually it's not here. It's not in this environment. It's somewhere else.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:23

Yeah, I have something on my phone as a phone album called Smile File, which sounds like it's very similar to what you have, but things that happen that make me feel really good, it might even be a screenshot of a note of a reflection I've had. It might be a feedback that someone's given me about some of our work that we've done together. It might be a book testimonial. It might be someone saying, oh my God, I've got into clinical training, and you are a big reason why. And all of those are in a smile file. They know when a few different reasons you might want to reflect. You might want to validate yourself when you're feeling like you're having a really tricky day, or you might want to use that to refocus your energies. But I've got that to draw on for a variety of reasons. So yeah, if you don't already have a smile file,

Munisha (: 28:11

I think I need to get that instead. It sounds like a habit, but just in a different way. But yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:17

It kind of brings all the things together into one place. So yeah, I do use notes, but then I'll take a screenshot of the notes I think would be well suited within the smile files. Smile file. Yeah, smile file. Thank you so much for your time, Munisha, and I hope that you continue to really enjoy being a PWP and providing a quality service where you are living your authentic best self, living your values and knowing that it's really important that you do. So thank you so much for sharing your story with our viewers, with our listeners, because it really matters. And one of the most powerful things about this podcast we're over 200 episodes in now, is that people are like, oh, actually, this is really giving me food for thought, for thinking about retraining, for thinking about making myself happy, doing something authentic, and that meets my values and your story. So well encapsulates all of that.

Munisha (: 29:18

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:21

You're so welcome. Thank you for your time and wishing you well with whatever comes next for you. Thank

Munisha (: 29:27

You, Marianne.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:29

Thank you. Thank you so much for watching, and again, to our fabulous guest, Munisha, for her time. What has this ignited for you? Is this validating? Is this the permission slip you needed? I would love to know in the comments, I would love to know what this has started for you or what this has continued to validate for you. If you are watching on YouTube, please do drop a like please do drop a comment. And if you are on Spotify, you can do the same there too on Apple Podcast. You can rate and review the show and I'd be so grateful if you did. Wherever you are watching, subscribing or following a show is the kindest thing you can do for any podcaster or creator that you rate. If you would do that, I would be so, so grateful. And yeah, it helps me to keep providing this content that you find hopefully so useful.

(: 30:29

If you are thinking about retraining or if you are underway with retraining or even just making it your first career, I think you will find the Aspiring Psychologist membership an incredibly useful resource. And what I would say is it's never too early to join for that matter. It's never too late to join. If you've got an interview coming up, dive in, people have got interviews, have got jobs just from watching content even on replay. But the live stuff is pretty good too. When you do join, you'll get access to the last three years of membership content as well. So there's nothing, not to people speak really highly of it. If you've got any questions about whether it might be right for you, please don't be a stranger. Please do let me know. And if you'd like to join the membership or check it out, you can do by going to www aspiring psychologist.co.uk. If you find validation and inspiration in other people's stories, I think you'll really like the books, the Clinical Psychologist Collective and the Aspiring Psychologist Collective. And there's links for all of these things in my description and show notes.

Jingle Guy (: 31:39

If you're looking to become a psychologist podcast, you'll be.