Why you should apply for research roles - clinical research practitioner

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

Coming up today, we are looking at why you should apply for that research role. I am talking to Jess, who works in a research capacity for the NHS, and she's guiding us through all her top tips and insight, wisdom and brilliance in the field of research. It's a really captivating listen and one that you can't help but learn from and feel inspired by. I hope you find it so useful.

(: 00:33

Welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. Now, when I was an aspiring psychologist, I was looking at how to tick off my different areas of expertise, and one of the ones that felt a lot trickier for me to do was gaining research experience and feeling confident and capable of discussing research, handling research, dissecting research, planning, research, all of that. And I came across a LinkedIn profile, which absolutely piqued my intrigue. And so I invited the profile owner onto the podcast so that we could learn more about her role. I think it is a fascinating episode, and I hope you will do too. Hope it inspires you to do whatever it is that you want to do from your psychology degree. That is what this podcast is all about. Please do and fling a comment below as well. If you're watching. I hope you'll find it useful, and I'll look forward to catching up with you on the other side. I, Jess, just want to welcome you along to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica McGiffen (: 01:43

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:45

Oh, absolutely. My pleasure. So we got connected on LinkedIn, didn't we? And I was like, I've never met anyone with the title clinical research practitioner before, and that's how we thought it might be a useful podcast episode. But before we go into thinking about what your job is and what the role involves, let's hear a little bit about you and what your journey has been in mental health so far.

Jessica McGiffen (: 02:12

Yeah, so it's kind of been up and down really. I've been in quite a few different jobs. I've done some volunteering, so obviously I've done uni, did my bachelor's and master's in forensic psychology. I knew I've always wanted to go in mental health. It was just kind of the right pathway into it for me. I did volunteering with a company called Community Led Initiatives. I did that for quite a while whilst I was studying because I couldn't obviously have a full-time job and that was helping ex-offenders reintegrate back into the community. And then after that I did some teaching assistant roles, different schools across Manchester. And then I was a teaching assistant in an alternative provision of a high school. And that was an interesting job to say the least. It was a fantastic place to work. And then now obviously I'm doing the job that I'm doing now, which is working in clinical research studies in mental health.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:13

Amazing. You sound like you've had a very busy few years and Yes, drawing and developing on lots of different skills.

Jessica McGiffen (: 03:24

It was one of them things. I kind of didn't know what I wanted to go into with mental health, so I thought if I kind of get as much experience as I can, it'll help me inform where I want to go so I don't end up doing something for a couple of years I'm not really that interested in. And yeah, I just kind of wanted to do everything before I settled on what I actually wanted to do. So it was good getting all that different type of experiences.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:48

Amazing. And did you just decide now is the time to do something a bit different or was the opportunity offered to you? How did your current role come about?

Jessica McGiffen (: 03:59

Yeah, the job that I'm doing now, it's a bit crazy when I think about how I actually got into it. So I never thought of going into research. I didn't even realise it was a job role. I know it sounds a bit crazy, but you don't really think that research is a viable route for you to go into, especially at an entry level. And in my old job, I knew it was kind of time to move on. I'd got the experience that I wanted from that. And so I was just looking around applying for a few different jobs. That job role came up and I think it was a couple months, I want to say two months after something like that. And they said, do you want an interview? And by that time I'm scratching my head thinking, yes, I can't really remember what it's for, but absolutely I would like an interview and obviously applied for it.

(: 04:47

Did the interview, I really didn't think I was going to get the job, so I kind of just went into it thinking just be myself and if I get the job fantastic. If I don't, I kind of already had the expectation that I might not get it. So yeah, I feel very lucky that I've been able to get this job and get the experience in research and meet all the different people that I've met because a lot of the people that I speak to say that research is one of the hardest places to get experience other than when you do your education in uni. So yeah, I'm very, very grateful to be in the role that I'm in now.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:24

Yeah, it really is. And I was reflecting upon that as you spoke really that often when people come to me as part of the membership or even with questions about professional roots in psychology, it's the research that feels like it's a bit of an achilles heel that it feels like they need developing. And if you are not working in a trust that seems to do much research or your supervisor's not involved in research or you haven't done a master's, it can definitely feel like it's a more difficult competence to thicken your experience in.

Jessica McGiffen (: 05:57

Yeah, I completely agree, especially for people that want to go into the DClin and things like that. I genuinely didn't realise how valuable the work that I'm doing now is for the rest of my career really. So yeah, it's definitely a fantastic place to get into if you can and if there's jobs available out there, but it's just knowing where to look as well, isn't it? So yeah, I definitely would say that if you can get in this way, then do so. But with the job that I do, the A CIP, so it is quite a new role. It kind of works in conjunction with a research assistant. So I think I'm getting ahead of myself here with a question later on down the line, but I'll carry on anyway. So I help recruit into clinical studies and get them through the consent process, do the baseline measures, which is a few different questionnaires to measure what we want at the beginning of the study so we can compare at a later date to see how effective the treatment might have been or it might not have been. And the research assistant then does the follow ups and things like that.

(: 07:10

But yeah, so I completely forgotten what my point was, but that's what I do.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 07:14

Okay. So are you supporting with what we learn about in research as being the gold standard of research, which is randomised controls trials? Are you doing all of that, assigning people and getting them through the onboarding processes for that,

Jessica McGiffen (: 07:29

Doing all the good stuff? So I liaise with clinical services, whichever one is deemed suitable for the research that we're currently working on, integrate myself within that team. I screen off their waiting list or through referrals and then get people in. I'm at the first point of contact with potential participants and same what the study is, take them through the consent process, obviously, make sure they've had an amount of time away so they can have a think about if they want to take part. And then, yeah, we do the consent and we will start on the baseline measures, which again is, I said it's just a few different questionnaires to measure how they might be feelings. Then we can compare at a later date. But as part of my job role, I also have an additional job role to this, which is a study facilitator.

(: 08:23

And that basically means that I upload the recruitment data onto the system, the CPMS system, and then that directly affects the funding that the study gets based on how many participants are put into this database. And that kind of job role comes with a whole other little additional tasks, which is liaising with the research office, making sure that the principal investigator who runs the study is aware of any updates on amendments that they might have put in and things like that. It is a lot of responsibility, but when you actually get into it, for me now, when I first started, it really overwhelmed me. I thought, am I capable of working at this level? Am I capable interacting with all these top researchers and things like that? But now that I'm in it, it feels like second nature. So yeah, I think it seems to me and probably to other people that it's an intimidating job to go into, but once you're in there and you kind of know how everything operates, yeah, it's just fantastic. I feel like I'm biassed. I have to big up my job role, but truly it is a fantastic place to get into and to work for.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 09:38

Yeah, it sounds amazing. And I think what you are evidencing really nicely is when we do a role, we just begin to, well just become skilled at it. And the things that might have sounded daunting, like some of the phrases you were kind of punting out there, like Lee Investigator,

Jessica McGiffen (: 10:00

Oh

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:01

Man. But it just becomes commonplace to you. Whereas I remember when I kind of filled in my ethics forms for my doctorate research and you have to call yourself the principal investigator like, oh, I feel fraudulent, I can't be. What I see is everything you are talking about and everything you're experiencing, it really does set you up really well for anything you do in future, even if it's your own research in future, but for helping in future, you may be working in clinical services where a client's not sure about whether they should or shouldn't get involved in research and you can have a really helpful informed discussion with them to discuss what that would involve.

Jessica McGiffen (: 10:43

Yeah, and I mean it helps as well being able to be embedded in some of the clinical teams. So I've worked within early intervention within this job role, I've worked in the prison system, I've worked in cams, I've worked in IAP services. So not only do you get a roundabout view of the services that you work in and how mental health services work in general, but you also get to meet all these different people, all these different practitioners, and you're able to kind of bridge the gap between research and the people that are actually dealing with mental health as, I can't think of the right phrase in the first responders, the people that are actually embedded in helping the service users with whatever they might be facing. Because a lot of people, I think they kind of don't really know much about research or sometimes they might not see the benefit of it, and it is nice being able to bridge the gap in between them both. Yeah, yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 11:49

Sounds amazing. I guess what I hadn't realised is just how many clinical populations you are being able to work with because of the changing nature of your research studies. It sounds incredible and in terms of, I'm often thinking about when people are getting feedback about their professional psychology applications, and in the old days you used to get more varied clinical experience, more research experience needed, more clinical experience needed, you're just ticking off all of those competencies so that there's less and less reasons why somebody would say, oh, not ready for this next stage of what you want. But of course you may choose to just stay where you are right now and work in research and become a principal researcher yourself. It's not necessarily that it's always going to be a throughput job to then go on and do professional psychology, but what you've evidenced beautifully is that once you've done a psychology degree, it can take you in such a beautiful variety of directions.

Jessica McGiffen (: 12:54

And I really think that the biggest piece of advice that I can give anybody that's on the same journey that I've been on is that even if you think you might not be eligible, you don't meet the requirements for a job, just go for it. And truly don't stress about trying to get all the answers and give these textbook responses. They just really want you to be yourself because if you're interested in this type of work and you've got some kind of relevant experience, then go for it. Honestly, be so shocked at the opportunities that you miss out through thinking that you might not be ready, you might not be good enough. And this is why when everybody asks me how I got into this role, I like to put in there that I didn't think I was going to get this job. I didn't think that I would meet the requirements.

(: 13:44

I thought it'd be too difficult for me, especially because I'd never worked in research before. And now that I'm in it, like you said, it's just fantastic. The amount of different experiences I'm getting all within the same role. My day-to-day is completely different all the time. I've interacted with so many different people, professionals and different service users. I've heard so many different stories I've had to deal with varying situations, risk situations, and I think there's nothing more valuable than hands-on experience, especially when you're working in these types of environments with the right support. And obviously within research it's very, in most services it is, but especially within research, you've got to make sure you have clinical cover, you've got to make sure that you've got people around you constantly to be able to say, have I dealt with this risk situation correctly? Should I have done this differently? I said this to a participant that didn't, it particularly reacts very well, could I improve on this? And yeah, it's definitely something like keep saying, go into it if you can.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:53

Amazing. Thanks, Jess. That's so interesting and I've got so many things I want to say to you next, but it made me think about some research I'd become aware of about gender and employability and the employment processes. Something that was like men are more likely to apply for jobs that they don't have all the clinical, they don't have all the essential personal criteria for in terms of the person spec, but women are more likely to only apply if they're like 90, 95% meeting the criteria, so that in that way you're more likely to get men in higher jobs because there's going to be more men applying for those higher jobs.

Jessica McGiffen (: 15:37

Exactly. As soon as you said that, it made me think about, I also saw a piece of research, I dunno if it was the same one, but it was about pay rises and it said that men often get pay rises more so than women do because they ask for them. And it really struck a chord because I thought there's so many women out there that are missing out on these extremely fantastic opportunities because of things like that. And especially within mental health. Not to say that men don't have an empathic side because they do, but women, they're just more in tuned that way. And I think that just having that compassion and empathy would get you a lot farther in the job process than you might think. So yeah, if you don't meet all the specification still absolutely go for it. The worst they can say is no. So absolutely, I'm a massive advocate for Go for it, you've got nothing to lose.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:38

Oh, I love that. I love that. And I'm thinking, oh, okay, so if I apply for this job, I don't quite meet the spec for what is an interview going to be like for a research practitioner? They are going to rip me to shreds, they're going to ask me all sorts of difficult research questions. What was that process like for you,

Jessica McGiffen (: 17:00

The interview process? So beforehand I'd really built it up in my own head exactly what you said. I thought it was going to be really tough. I thought it was going to grill me on absolutely everything. It wasn't like that at all. I did a 10 minute presentation. I can't exactly remember what the question was, but it was in a sense, why is research important and what value does it have for the community and the wider population? So I did a very brief presentation on that, put a lot of research citations in there just to show my knowledge. And then after that, it was a question and answer, but it was obviously knowledge-based questions like, if this happened, how would you deal with this? But it was very relaxed. The people that I had on the panel I've worked with since getting the job, and they were just themselves, they were exactly the type of person that I've got to know them as after I got the role.

(: 18:00

So it was very relaxed, very chilled out because I was kind of, my mind was running a mile a minute. I had to keep asking 'em to repeat the question, and I really thought that would go against me. I thought, oh, they're going to think that I'm not listening or I'm not involved or anything like that. But yeah, I was just myself because they kind of fostered this environment where I could be comfortable and that really helped me get the job. But so the actual process itself wasn't as daunting as I thought it was going to be. I just built it up in my own head.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 18:37

It sounds like they were screening you for your soft skills and your kind of personability as much as what you knew. Obviously they know what sort of roles you're going to be in. Are you ever working in people's homes or is it always in clinical settings?

Jessica McGiffen (: 18:52

No, so I can work in people's homes, but it's just kind of discretion based. Personally, I try not to do that, but for example, if some people need that for whatever reason, they have mobility issues, they have something that gives them a bit more anxiety about going out of the house, I will do that. But because I'm not clinically trained and because I'm kind of, when I was new to the role, I was a bit more anxious about that, but now I'd feel a lot more comfortable doing it. But it's mostly in the clinical services, but we can,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:33

I would say that you do have loads of clinical skills and training and all the stuff you said before about all the stuff you're working with young offenders and stuff like that, that is definitely teaching you clinical skills and you may not be yet professionally qualified, but I would say that you definitely have clinical skills,

Jessica McGiffen (: 19:56

But this is the thing, and it's about trusting yourself, trusting your own judgement and the personability and things like that. I think it's took me a long time in this job to feel comfortable with that I am competent. It's kind of remnants of feeling like imposter syndrome where I don't really, well I do now, but I didn't really trust that, oh, have I done this? Have I done this? But with the experiences that I've had and the positions that I've kind of been put in the environment, it kind of forces you to know that you're good at what you do, you know what you're doing. So yeah, it's just about learning to trust yourself as well. I think that's one of the most difficult parts of the journey into psychology, what you're doing. So give yourself credit

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:48

For sure. And even myself, I've been qualified since 2011 and I still have that, oh, you're going to be rumbled when

Jessica McGiffen (: 20:57

I'm doing

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:58

This podcast. I think, oh, people are going to be like, oh, Marianne's clinical skills there are a bit off. She wasn't listening.....! But so long as you do it with a good heart and you are not actively setting out to be putting someone at risk, I think. And I think you need to be aware of everything you don't yet know, but it's feeling comfortable with the things that you are doing well enough, I think. Yeah,

Jessica McGiffen (: 21:23

Yeah, I agree. Completely agree.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 21:26

And we can always learn something from observing our colleagues or our supervisors do something that's a really nice thing, but we don't necessarily need to be daunted by that. We could think about that as a learning opportunity.

Jessica McGiffen (: 21:39

Yeah, I mean, we do a lot of shadowing in the services that I work in, and that is where I kind of learn most of the skills that I have now, kind of see how they would react, how would they deal with certain situations, and then obviously having somebody shadow me when I kind of then was on the journey to long working. But that was probably one of the best learning experiences for me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 22:09

Great. And I'm assuming the NHS roles, what sort of banding are the roles coming out at? If that doesn't feel too improper a question to ask you?

Jessica McGiffen (: 22:23

That's absolutely fine. I'm all for band and pay transparency, so what I am working at is a band four and a research assistant, which is they what kind of what I touched on before they do the follow-ups and things like that. They are mostly Band four as well, but some of them can be at Band five. But yeah, mines are band four.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 22:51

Thank you. I know that that'll be a question that people are wondering. So it is. I only ever made it to band for assistant psychologist, so it's similar pay levels, well, the same pay levels as well. And is it only ever one research study at a time or were you constantly juggling different ones?

Jessica McGiffen (: 23:12

No, absolutely not. So I think at one time I was working on about five. At the moment I'm working on three, and they have quarterly reviews of a CIP allocation. So they'll kind of say, well, this research unit needs two days of your time. This research unit needs three days of your time. And then they'll divvy it up between themselves. So under one research unit for two days, you could be working one day on one study, one day on another study, and then for the three days remaining, you could work two days on one study and then the remaining day on another study. So it really just depends on your time allocations to each study, what study needs are, and obviously how comfortable you are with the amount of work you're doing and managing your own time. But they're quite good with keeping in constant contact through supervision to see how you're getting on with things. Is it too much? Can you take on a little bit more? So yeah, currently I'm working on three studies. One of them is due to end in February, so we're having talks at the minute about other studies that are coming up that I can become involved with.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 24:34

Brilliant, thank you. And are, what are we looking at like medication studies or therapy studies, or does it really depend? All of these things are above and beyond and difference. What are we looking at?

Jessica McGiffen (: 24:48

There is about eight research units, but I only work with the non-medication trials. I can't think of what the correct term is term, but mine's all intervention or therapy based. So I'm currently working on one called Prospect, which is working within the prison system, and that is looking at suicide prevention in prisons for men. And I also work on something called relate, which is trialling cognitive analytical therapy for self-harm in step three IAP services and above. And then the final one I work on is called Bay, which is working in CAM services. So that's quite a big trial. It's kind of all over the country looking at behavioural activation in youths.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:39

I love that they've called it BAE because youths are all about their BAES, but actually it's kind of behavioural activation. That's why they've called it bay. Is that right?

Jessica McGiffen (: 25:47

Yeah. Every time that I say that to people, they give me a bit of a side eye. They're like, bae as in bae boyfriend girlfriend. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't mean that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:02

Amazing. So not every trust will have a research unit. Is it sort of localised?

Jessica McGiffen (: 26:11

I do think most trusts do have their own research unit. Yeah, it just depends how big it is and whether they liaise with different trusts. So for example, on Bay it's run by GMMH, so under research innovation, but we work with Pennine, we work with Yorkshire Research Innovation and kind of all over. So it's kind of a joint effort, I suppose.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:42

Perfect. Thank you. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you think would be useful for our listeners and our watchers to know or understand about your role?

Jessica McGiffen (: 26:52

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things about this job role, it really is about time management. And especially say if you can do something. So I know at first I really struggled with saying, no, I don't know how to do this. No, I can't give you any more of my time. I don't have any time to give you. So it's about just kind of sticking up for yourself. Some people might not struggle with that, but I know I did. It is got to the point now where they're like, oh, can you take on a little bit more? And I'm like, no, no. I've got too many things to be doing. I'm busy enough as it is. But yeah, I think that's one of the biggest time management, definitely something to be aware of

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:37

That's really empowering. And actually, I often ask people at the end of podcast episodes, what's your tip? Producing burnout in mental health and aspiring psychologists. But I think that's it. You are allowed to say no. Or if someone says, well, this is really important, this needs doing, you're kind of looking at, well, I can't do all of this, so could you help me look at my priorities to work out which other one I can put down? Because I can't do all of this. There's only one of me.

Jessica McGiffen (: 28:04

Yeah, exactly. And I think it's also taking advantage of the support that's within your job itself, because obviously within mental health you get your own kind of internal hub that will help you out with whatever you might be needing. I think it's just trying to reduce the stigma around, well, I might not have it as bad as the people that I'm working with, so I have nothing to worry about or I have nothing to complain about because I know I've experienced that before. You're hearing a lot about all these really traumatic things that people experienced. And then when you can look at your own life and it pales in comparison and you think, well, the way I'm feeling I'm burnt out from work, it's not as bad. But you need to look after yourself to be able to then look after the people that you're working with. So manage your time well, make sure that you can say no to people when it's needed and access the support that people are offering you and that your job and the trust itself can give you, because I just think it's so important.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:09

It really is. And it's good to know that you still get supervision around that it can be so containing, especially when you're trying to learn about an area. And of course, what we know is that supervision, its primary function is client protection and safety, and that's incredibly important in the role that you're doing.

Jessica McGiffen (: 29:28

Yeah, definitely. I agree. I get supervision every week, so it's fantastic for me. I'm able to get the support I need on such a consistent and regular basis, and it's why it's not been easy, but it's been much more manageable to ease into the job, manage my own time long work and all that kind of stuff. It's really helped me settle into it quite well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:54

Good. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you, and thank you so much for helping illuminate our audience about research and how it doesn't need to be scary and how you absolutely can and should apply for those research jobs.

Jessica McGiffen (: 30:08

Yes, definitely. Please do. And yeah, thank you for having me. It's been brilliant being on here.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 30:13

Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you so much for your time, Jess.

Jessica McGiffen (: 30:18

Yeah, no worries. Thank you.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 30:20

Wow, how incredible. And just after I stopped record on that episode with Jess, I said that I hadn't wanted to ask her publicly what her career plans were in case she upset her employees, but she said, I've been alright with that. So she said that originally she wanted to do forensic psychology, actually now she's really considering clinical psychology and she feels like she's building good skills and experiences there. So I love how versatile a psychology degree can be. And I know Jess' was a forensic psychology degree, she said at the beginning, but it can take us in so many different glorious directions. So whatever stage of your career you are at as you listen to this or watch this, thank you for spending the time with me. Thank you for trusting me to help you learn more about this really important area. If you'd like me to help further your knowledge and expertise even more, do please consider coming along and joining the Aspiring Psychologist membership, which you can do from just 30 pounds a month. Do also check out the Aspiring Psychologist Collective book and the Clinical Psychologist Collective book, and I will look forward to catching up with you for our next episode of the podcast, which will be along for you from 6:00 AM on Monday. Take care.

Jingle guy (: 31:34

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