What it means to call yourself a psychologist, with Dr Tara Quinn-Cirillo

Name of guest is Dr Tara Quinn-Cirillo

(: 00:28

Hi, welcome along to the aspiring psychologist podcast. What does it mean to call yourself a psychologist? That is the question we are going to be answering in today's episode of this podcast, and I'm gonna be joined by a wonderful friend and colleague Dr. Tara Quinn-Cirillo who is a counseling psychologist, and we're gonna be answering this question together. I hope you'll find it a really useful thought provoking episode. And as ever if you've got any questions, comments, or observations on it, please do come along and talk to us, you know? So I'm gonna be in the aspiring psychologist community, Facebook group, come and discuss your thoughts about this episode here because I'd love to know what you think. But for now, let me pass over to a very hot Maryanne and Tara. As we answer the question, what it means to call yourself a psychologist and I will catch up with you on the other end, like to welcome along our guest today, who is Dr. Tara Quinn-Cirillo thanks for joining us, Tara.

(: 01:47

You're welcome.

(: 01:49

So you are a counseling psychologist and also the conversation startup project founder.

(: 01:56

Yes.

(: 01:57

Yes. Lovely. And we first crossed paths. I believe via Facebook didn't we through a professionals group that we are both part of, but you are also part of the clinical psychologist collective. I, yeah, I asked if you'd like to be part of it and you were on holiday at the time and you absolutely rose to the challenge. So thank you so much for being part of that.

(: 02:20

You're welcome. I think I wrote it on my summit.

(: 02:23

It's always useful to have a little overview of you and where you are at. Would you be able to give us a little flavor of, of your career to date Tara?

(: 02:33

So I am a HCPC registered counseling psychologist, so I qualified, oh my gosh, this sound really old very long time ago, over 20 years ago. So I started my training in 1999 and back then psychologists trained in chunks order the masters and then a practitioner diploma. And then my doctorate later on. So I've worked in mental health disability. I've also worked with head injury patients as well, all sorts of things. I've worked in the NHS for many years and then set myself up in private practice about seven, eight years ago. But I have a real interest in humanitarian and community work as well. So I'm involved in a few projects and run one of my own in my own local area to help people connect and feel better and come back later.

(: 03:17

I love that I'm so inspired by your community work. It's incredible. So we might well hear more about about your projects a little bit later, but today we thought it would be a good idea to get together, to discuss, you know, what it means to be. And for those of you, , we are, we are not recording video today because we are both melting because we should save our listeners. It's currently 40 degrees and we, we are, we are, yeah, we are not camera ready. So I was gonna do some inverted commerce but that that's not gonna work, but what it means to call yourself a psychologist and why that can be a bit confusing for the general public, but also a bit confusing when you are trying to become a psychologist.

(: 04:03

Absolutely. I think cuz even as a psychologist, sometimes I struggle with who and who isn't allowed to use. The title training has changed a lot over the years as well, which I think also is something that added into the mix. And I guess a really important thing for people to consider is that it's not a protected type of, so people can use it who have an undergraduate degree in psychology. But when we think about what we call a qualified, a psychologist, offering mental health service to the public, I guess is a nice way of putting it needs to undergo a certain type of training and needs to be registered with the health and care professions council. And that makes it really easy because you can look us up on that directory. So anybody who is saying that they are a qualified psychologist offering a service to the public, you should be able to look them up on that register. It's free to access and their name will be there. If it's not there, they're not qualified and they're not

(: 04:57

Registered. Okay. And there are a number of titles that are regulated by the HCPC aren't there,

(: 05:03

There are. Yeah. So there's quite a few which includes clinical psychology counseling psychology as well. You do, there are psychologists who work predominantly in research as well. And I guess, you know, in our discussion today, we need to be really clear that we are talking predominantly we about people who are offering a therapeutic service to the public. So there may be people who are research psychologists, that's very different. But we are talking about people that you would look up, go and see for something like depression or anxiety who are often you, what we call a clinical service, really. That might be a very nice way of putting it. And those people need to be registered. And that is so that people can keep an eye on that. We've done the right training, that we're continuing to develop our skills and that we're practicing within a robust ethical framework. That's really important. So we all do continuing professional development. We all have to reregister with the healthcare professionals council and they keep an eye and people can make complaints about services they receive, which is exactly how it should be. So the framework is there to keep you safe and to keep practitioners in line as well. We need that. And that's what makes a good ethical practitioner, but it's just not very clear to the public what those pathways are.

(: 06:15

Yeah. I think when you see someone calling themselves a psychologist, I think you just assume someone wouldn't be, wouldn't have a, wouldn't have the goal enough to do that if they weren't actually qualified. And so I think lots of people don't look into the qualifications and just look at what people are describing themselves as, and that is, is, is it done to purposefully mislead? I don't know. And I certainly had the opposite when I was younger that I had massive imposter syndrome and wouldn't want to at all speak outside of my areas of competence. It's, you know, maybe it's admirable that people live in the world where they feel they can do that, but it, it can be really misleading. Can't it?

(: 07:07

I'm so glad you brought that out. Cause that's the thing that I struggle with. So I was on LinkedIn literally for 10 minutes before this call. And a coach that I know is now using the title psychologist this week. And that's the thing that I, I struggle with is that people are using the term and it's the ethics of it. So I guess legally you can say, if you have a psychology degree, you can use that title. That's always gonna be confusing unless that has changed. But what I struggle with is people who perhaps haven't got a first degree in psychology. So what we call an undergraduate degree and are then calling themselves psychologists, cause that's very different. And I really struggle with why someone want to do that because just like you Maryanne, I sometimes get nervous about am I able to offer things and I've been doing this for 22 years. So, you know, I really do struggle with that. And actually on the one hand, I think, should I admire these people that they are bold and putting themselves out there. But then I actually then remember to go back to my original viewpoint, which is actually I struggle to see how that was safe and ethical and how we manage risk in those situations.

(: 08:09

Yeah. You raised a really good point about, you know, who do you complain to if someone isn't registered or regulated or qualified and that's not something I considered.

(: 08:18

Yes. Yeah. So I did try to raise a complaint against somebody who recently actually, who I knew didn't have an undergraduate degree and was using the term psychologist to offer an under an umbrella of an, an applied cycle, just name. So using council, psychologists as a title. But because they're not registered with anybody, there's no one to complain to. So it's almost as if you are qualified, you're doing the right thing. Like we are, you're actually more vulnerable because people can go and make a complaint against you, which is absolutely how it can be. But what do we do if we're concerned about people, you can bring it up with them. I'm not sure what else you can do. Cause I know that our professional bodies are not in, in that, which is another issue. And there are different layers out there. I guess we could do several S on this.

(: 09:00

There are some people that are using logos from certain professional bodies, for example, on their website. So those professional bodies, I think have a duty to be monitoring that and to do something about it. But again, if people are just using the term the word psychology is the science of mind and behavior. So if you feel that you are supporting people to understand their behavior and make different life choices, then technically maybe you feel that you are a psychologist. The other thing I wanted to bring up and is a tricky subject is that sometimes when we try and bring this up in the media or between professionals on a public platform, it can look like we are being very protective over what we do. And I don't feel that it's about that. It's not about that. We don't want people to say they're psychologists because we need to be very special and a very elite group.

(: 09:47

It's about safety in this. That's the only reason that I like to talk about this is who is offering services to the public people that are often vulnerable. Maybe not be in a position to make a really good informed choice about who they're seeing. If you are overly anxious or you're depressed, how often are you gonna be able to be in a position to really look into someone and to know that there's a trust element, a huge trust in moment that someone says they are, that they presume they are. And that's, I guess why it's really important that we speak out and try and help people make more, some choices about who they see.

(: 10:21

Yeah. I think if you do see certain logos, you think that they're credible, but actually let's talk about it. It's BPS, isn't it? That we are, we're alluding to, that you could be registered with the BPS as a graduate member and then you could display their logo.

(: 10:39

Yes, absolutely.

(: 10:40

If, if you were doing that, the general public might assume that you were at doctoral level because you don't necessarily have to say what level of membership you have.

(: 10:52

So people use the term registered, which actually is on anybody's paperwork. So when I was a student, you could register as a student member. So even before I started my training, I registered, that was very exciting to do. Cause I wanted to get, you know, CCP, D events. I wanted to learn. I wanted to get the job section, which used to be at the back of them. Cause only got in those days before the internet became a huge thing, cuz I'm that old. But there is a difference I'm registered with. You could be registered with any organization, but it doesn't tell you much about what you do and what you're able to provide and how safe and ethical we are.

(: 11:24

And actually when you are a qualified psychology, you don't even need to now be registered with the VPs if you don't choose to. So the absence of a logo isn't necessarily the sign of a lack of qualification. But if someone is calling themselves one of the protected titles like clean psych or you know, forensic psychologist or, you know sport and exercise, psychologist, counseling psychologist, then they need to be registered with, with the HCPC. And if they are not, then you can report them to the HCPC to get that stopped.

(: 12:01

You know, some people are very clever, so they have done this research. So they know some people I've noticed and it is pretty tricky and I'm sure there'll be people listen to this going, she's talking about me, who will change their title every couple of weeks. And I think that is to protect themselves, you know some people's links in profile changes weekly and that's really confusing for the public as well. Now the public are using social media to find people. And there's a number of BBC documentaries actually over the last couple of years about unregulated therapists in general and who people are going to see and how they're finding them. So the roots are changing. And when people are looking at social media your title over the way that you portray yourself also can give you an indication of how qualified you are, but actually you can do different story, can't it?

(: 12:49

Yeah. And with our audience being aspiring psychologists, I can imagine it's quite disheartening to see people calling themselves psychologists and making, you know, probably a reasonable income when they're trying to do it. You know, the actual qualified hard slog route. You know, it really disheartening.

(: 13:10

That's such an important point. I know when we were talking about doing this podcast, you know, you were kind of first support of course, to think, right. We need to educate the public. But also what is that journey like? You know, for someone like myself, my course was self-funded I had to work night shift in hospitals to be a robust ethical practitioner and I to strive really hard to do my best on a day to day basis. And there even sometimes when I take referrals and think, actually I'm not sure that's the case for me. Maybe someone who specialize in there a bit more should take that on. And I pride myself on that and actually it can be really frustrating when you've got people who don't see that as an issue who are quite happy to use something. It's often words be clear about the prestige that goes along with that.

(: 13:56

You know, quite often people won't question the word psychologists, yes, I'm gonna see them. And there is a certain I guess the word robust, that title sounds quite robust. This person must know what they're doing. They must be able to manage me and my problems. Maybe I feel safe with them. And certainly I know when I've had patients inquiring to me, you know, what are the difference between psychologists and you know, a lot of them have said just make them feel safe, seeing the word psychologist. So there is something there isn't it, you learn that and you are offering yourself out as a psychologist, really unethical, really, really unethical. And it does make me question. Why are you in that industry in the first place?

(: 14:33

Yeah, when I, when I reflect back on my title clinical psychologist, when I use that, it's like everything that's gone before me, you know, the good days, bad days, the time I got my first assistant post, the time I had some real stress in my vibe and was feeling really sick, you know, all of that. And then the day when I graduated and I was wearing my funny little sorting hat in the, in the cathedral feeling so proud about to cross that stage, having that moment, that all goes with me, you know, I'm a clinical psychologist, but I am years in the makings. It's a bit like that Royal Navy life that, but, but it is, isn't it, you know? And I, I bring that wealth of experience, all of those different levels with me. And that's what makes us quite unique as qualified psychologists is that we are able to bring multi-layered thinking and approach. And even maybe sometimes multi-layered experience from different careers into what we are doing people. And people have often said to me, who've had therapists before, oh, okay. You are different. This is different. You know, it's not just counseling. So counseling absolutely has its place, doesn't it? But counseling psychology is different because it's the application of that to clinical settings and clinical populations. And it is different, isn't it? It's, it's quite an active process when you are with a psychologist.

(: 16:01

Absolutely. And you know, it takes a long time. You, you very in depth formulations for specialists and looking at human behavioral dynamics and how that may impact mental health and our behavior and what then ultimately keeps problems going. And as you say, there is something about quite often, psychologists don't go straight into doing their training. They have to do many different jobs and sometimes working night shifts. And as you say, you know, all of those different jobs that we've done, that's why I wanted to write my section for your book. Cuz I thought actually people maybe want to know what the journey is like and how that shapes you as a practitioner. So when someone's in front of me, I'm drawing on not just my training, but years and years and the character building stuff and the jobs I didn't wanna do. And the night shift that I really didn't wanna do and then go do lectures the next day. But it's all part of it. And I guess this, for me, there's something isn't there just about what sits well with you as an individual. And we might never be able to overcome that there will always be individuals who might be outside of that ethical framework, but I think we can do our best to educate the public so they can make an informed choice. They might decide to see someone based on what they do, but that's very different than advertising yourself as something you are not.

(: 17:11

Yeah. So if you are fully aware what qualifications someone has or haven't got and you believe their testimonials and you are choosing to make that as an informed decision, absolutely fine. And we really hope that works well for you. This is not a case of sour greats. This is a case of communicating to the public. You know, what to look for and that people may not be as they seem and

(: 17:35

It's that for me, it comes down to risk that background in doing risk assessments, every patient I see and looking at what's helping and what's not helping them in terms of risk, risk assessment. And people who have not gone through psychology training, you cannot take that as given. So somebody who's coming through groups and the problem with unregulated and unqualified psychologists is that they can be running groups. And because I was saying before, the kind of modalities treatment, vital modalities change, people are running WhatsApp, mental health groups and running Facebook groups. Is that what happens when someone gets missed? Cause they don't have that background, don't have that ability to risk assess or they don't have the ability to think about how they even would. And that for me is something that really sets up on this apart is our, you know, we will always have a good, robust framework around anything we do, whether it's community work. So for me, whether it's community work or paid client work, it's exactly the same framework it's about at the end of the day, keeping my patients safe for the clients, safe as well as supporting them of their problems. And to me, that's what differentiates us.

(: 18:40

Yeah, absolutely. And if someone doesn't need to be seen with a risk framework, then absolutely they can be seen elsewhere. You know, it's stepping down to the most appropriate service. But it's being robot, you know, and being honest with people about that. So sometimes come, people will come to me and I'm like, I don't actually think you need me. You know, I think I may be, more than money than you need to spend actually, but they're still saying, well, I, I want to see you. Because I know of you or I, I believe that you can help me and I's all I, I can. But it's being honest, isn't it about you know, what you can offer what you're good at and, and that there are other options available there sometimes as well. Absolutely.

(: 19:21

So, you know, let's talk money. There's a huge difference in pay between certain types of therapists, counselors, psychologists, coaches and to the public. That must be really confusing. And I imagine at times, very overwhelming if you are struggling something like depression or anxiety, for example. So some people go to therapy or go to coaches, cause they're looking for kind of life changes or slightly different things than those that might be in a slightly more risky or more vulnerable situation. So how do you know, what are the difference in psychologists are usually slightly more expensive than other therapists and counselors for the most part. And it's kind of education the public as to why. And I guess there's something there, isn't it that if someone's using a title with the kind of aim of getting paid more money, that's really unable, you know, doesn't sit well with me

(: 20:09

At all. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. We could probably moan on about this for ages, but this isn't, it's not the function. It's not a sour grapes episode, it's an information episode and an overview of you and your important work. Could you tell us a little bit about your conversation starter project and how you got it started?

(: 20:28

So my projects was a really obvious say is, was a really small C project to help people connect and manage emotional wellbeing off the back of the pandemic. But actually it has a wider remit now. So the idea is that it's a pre community resource where adults over 18 can come walking in nature. So you walk in local parks where we know neuroscience perspective, you process relations much differently, but much more different, that bit, much more different when you are walking and talking in nature. But it's a really robust framework with a very simple model for your attendees. So a risk assessment as, so we've got lot of risk assessment. There's a safeguarding framework in place so that everyone can come can have a really safe experience, but to the user it's free. You turn up, you have different walks at different times and different localities.

(: 21:16

You turn up, you talk, there's no format, you don't have to talk about a specific topic and it just works. So we've been going a year and it's just getting bigger and bigger. And the idea is we'd like to replicate the model across more, more localities and train people up to be able to deliver the model. And again, I'm about reducing barriers and stigma. So sometimes if we know we've gotta go somewhere and be there exactly on time, that can be a barrier, especially if you have anxiety, so you can come late, you don't have to come on time. We walk the same route so you can join us whenever you can leave whenever. So it fits in with the other things you're doing. So it's an anchor for the week for people, tackles loneliness, we've already had people reduced rates of anxiety, reduced rates of depression, you know, reduced rates of social anxiety as well off the back of all those lockdowns and not knowing how to talk to people. So it's a really lovely thing to be involved in. It makes me feel good. Being able to do that. I have a wonderful team of volunteers now, which is just incredible, who gives their time call free every single week, multiple times a week. And hopefully it'continue, you know, I can reach more people doing community work as well as just my clinic work. And that's why I do it.

(: 22:26

I love that. It's so inspiring. And I know when you first started, I can't remember if it was 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock on a Wednesday, but you'd be there.

(: 22:33

Yeah.

(: 22:33

and we'd be pouring with rain and you're like, I I've gotta go now I'm off out.

(: 22:39

I am there, come rain, come shine, come, whatever weather, heat waves, we are there. And I think that's what people like, people take ownership of the group. So every person that comes along, you don't have to come every week, which is also why it works. You come when you need it. For the most part, people come quite regularly, but some people just stick, ding out dependent. Some people use it as a foundation to other things as well. So we have referral pathways now with local agencies, which is fantastic. So sometimes that helps people get back into work while off work with health issues, physical health issues as well, sometimes cause walking, walking can help people who are covering sorts of things. And it's just really love to do. It's really. Yeah. Amazing time. I never walk away feeling like it's a chore and that has to be something,

(: 23:24

Oh, that's golden. Isn't it? When you feel like you're, you know, I'd say you're doing it for free, but you have been anyway, you know but you know, it feels like it's giving to you as well as, you know, giving to others. That's where you know that you are doing something good.

(: 23:38

Absolutely compassion for others is evidence makes to help individual wellbeing. So, you know, the time I invest in thinking about others and how the group can develop is actually really good for my wellbeing as well.

(: 23:51

Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Tara, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you. Mm-Hmm and let's just recap then. So if people are concerned that somebody is perhaps claiming to be something that they're not is there a good first step, a good way of investigating what their qualifications might be? I often have a little look on LinkedIn to see what's in their education section. Is that a good

(: 24:17

Idea? So it depends. There's lot's different platforms. So I wrote a blog this recently, actually. So one of the things I've said is ask them, you know, have those conversations, a robust ethical practitioner, not mind discussing their qualifications with you and they should even sign post you. I show all my patients here. I am go look me up. You know, this is where I am. This is where you go. If you have an issue with what they do. So look them up on the HCPC website, ask them what their qualifications are. They register. Who's their professional body. Even just asking that question will sometimes give you a huge indicator of, of what's coming next. And talk to them about your concerns. And, and to me, I always think sometimes difficult conversations are needed because it comes to you and your wellbeing and you're partner your money.

(: 25:03

So we're talking about practitioners who are working in private practice here, you are partner with your money to see them. So you have a right to know someone who's have a look, a psychologist who has a first degree can call themself a psychologist. But that's very different for being a qualified and regulated cist, offering the mental health service to the public. So they should have doctoral level qualifications. We use the term or equivalent. So some people who've been practicing quite a long time will have a master's degree and then a diploma in psychology, but they will talk you through that. You don't have to go and look that up. They will talk that, you know, and if they don't wanna talk about it, that to me is always a big red flag.

(: 25:43

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your time. Is there a good way for people to be able to connect with you if they should like to

(: 25:51

I'm on Twitter? So I'm actually low doctor and I am on www Dr. Tara.Co UK.

(: 25:58

Could you help us spell, could you help us spell how we look for you on Twitter if that's okay, Tara? I

(: 26:04

Know. So it's at Cirillo capital C I R I L L O and in capital D lowercase

(: 26:11

Ah lovely. Thank you very much.

(: 26:14

(: 26:14

Thank you for coming along today, despite the 40 degree heat you may now go and recline with an icy drink.

(: 26:22

Get melt.

(: 26:25

Thank you for joining me, Tara. Thank you, Nora. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I hope you found it a really useful, interesting engaging listen, Tara is certainly a bit of an inspiration for me. What do you think about using the term psychologist? Do you think it should be protected? Have you stumbled across people who are using the title without the possibly the necessary backing behind them? What are your thoughts do come and discuss this with me over on the Facebook group, the aspiring psychologist community with Dr. Maryanne Trent, that is where lots of good stuff happens. And it's totally free to join. So come and do that. Won't you in the meantime, thank you so much for listening and I'm looking forward to connecting with you again very soon. The next episode of the podcast will be available for you from 6:00 AM on Monday, but yet it will be here for you whenever you are ready. Please do subscribe on your chosen podcast platform. And if you are watching on YouTube, subscribe there too. If you are listening on apple, please do take a moment to rate and review. It really is appreciated. Thank you for being part of my world and I'll catch up with you very soon. Bye

(: 27:56

College, this with lessons and experience that will help you get qualified. Come and take it's right here in this book. It's a, if you are looking to a psychologist then with Dr. Mary.