What is ISTDP? The Therapy That Transforms Emotional Healing

Dr Marianne Trent (

00:00

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Have you ever wondered why we avoid certain feelings even when they keep us stuck in anxiety,

depression, or physical pain? In today's episode, we are exploring I

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Dynamic Psychotherapy with Dr. Suzanne Brown. This groundbreakin

g therapy dives deep and fast to

break through the barriers holding us back from truly feeling our emotions. If you are curious about how

I

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you won't want

to miss this. Hi, welcome along. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, I'm a qualified clinical

psychologist. Thank you so much for being here. What an incredible episode we have lined up for you

today. Dynamic therapy can get a bit of a bad reputation, and I definitely

think that it's one of the ones

that makes people think that you can read their minds when you meet them at parties.

(

01:00

):

B

ut today we are really having a closeup look at a modern dynamic therapy and frankly, it's made me

want to dive back headfirst into therapy to kind of explore what might be holding me back and how this

might be affecting the relationships in my life. I wou

ld love to know how this resonates with you. What

does this make you think about yourself? Please do drop me a comment like, subscribe, share with your

friends. Come and connect with me on socials too, where I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. I cannot

wait

for you to hear to experience this episode. I will see you on the other side. Hi. Just want to welcome

along our guest for today's Suzanne. Dr. Suzanne, should I say hi, Suzanne?

Dr Suzanne Brown (

01:46

):

Hi Marianne. Thank you.

Dr Marianne Trent (

01:48

):

Thanks for being here. We've been trying to catch up for some time. And to be fully honest with our

audience, we first met when you were a trainee and I was qualified in an adult mental health service, so

that's where we first crossed paths. But our liv

es have moved in very different directions since then and

you've been doing some really exciting work. Could you tell us a little bit about you and your

background, Suzanne?

Dr Suzanne Brown (

02:11

):

Yeah. So yes, we did. We met almost about a decade ago, I think it was. So following on from training, I

went on to do additional training in America. So I would fly out four times a

year to Boston to train in a

model called intensive short term Dynamic Psychotherapy. And I was introduced to that on the training

course actually, but I just kind of followed it and pursued it as an interest and during it, and then very

quickly after grad

uating, and actually I think still whilst I was in training, I'd begun to liaise with a local

football team, so Birmingham City Football Club. And then from there it just kind of expanded. So I

always tell people I kind of accidentally fell into sport. It

was never an intention. I have family that work

in sport, which is probably the link. So following on from that, I very quickly went into private practise

from graduating immediately.

(

03:08

):

Actually, I did part

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time, NHS for a year and part

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time practise. And then I took a position with Arsenal

Football Club, working with the women's team, the first team, and have worked around

sports, so

various different sports since rugby hockey, some Olympian work transitioning in and out after the

Olympics, supporting players whilst they are at the Olympics. Primarily it's been football. And so most

recently I was setting up the psychology

department for Sunderland Men's First Team football club. And

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alongside that, I guess I have maintained a private practise. It's reopening now, but have explored

various different avenues and most recently, and I would say returning much more to ancient me

thods

of shamanic practise and sound healing and very much embodied practise of therapy. So that's in a

nutshell what's been happening over the last decade.

Dr Marianne Trent (

04:13

):

Oh, amazing. Well, you have been very, very busy, but also you've given yourself permission to do what

excites and delights you and helps you get clinical results that really help people to thrive. A

nd I think

that's admirable.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

04:30

):

Oh, thank you. I think the approach for me in terms of I

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st introduction to it, it was just an

instant recognition really I would say of this is what I think therapy should look like. It just spoke to me

at a very deep heart and soul level. So yeah, I knew I had to pursue it. And then I was fortunate enough

to g

o to a conference where I met Patricia Coughlin, who became my trainer and later mentor. And

again, it was a very similar experience of I must train with this woman, I just have to do it. So I have

always I think supported that intuitive side and leaned in

to that and more so recently.

Dr Marianne Trent (

05:16

):

Incredible. Could you give us a brief overview if that's at all

possible, about the approach and what

people could expect in a nutshell For me? Okay,

Dr Suzanne Brown (

05:27

):

So it is a psyc

hodynamic approach. So if we kind of just start with the assumption that we believe in the

unconscious so that actually the majority, if not all of our behaviours are driven from this unconscious

place that then tries to link these two very important trian

gles. And I think this is really important. If

people could know about one thing for me, it would be the two triangles. So the triangle of person. So

when you're working in therapy with somebody, you are holding in mind the therapist, you're holding in

min

d the relationship then and how that links to their current life situation, who's in their current life

orbit. And of course where that stems from. So the past is the other part of that triangle. And then what

you are then mapping that across to is the tri

angle of conflict. So you are thinking about these

underlying feelings that at some point we have learned or been introduced to very, very early on that in

some way these are forbidden.

(

06:32

):

We should not have these feelings, they should not be expressed, and they can include any feelings. So

rage, grief, sexuality, joy, pride, people can feel anxious about any of those feelin

gs. And so that's the

other part. So feelings, anxiety, it gives rise to anxiety when these feelings start to rise and break

through into the surface or the consciousness of the person. And then they employ many, and we

employ defences to defend against th

at. So we all have defences. They're part of our normal

psychological development, but often they've become very rigid, very crippling to the person. So it's

different and it deviates from normal psychodynamic therapies or maybe psychoanalytic tradition in

that it welcomes resistance and it works specifically with resistance. We work with defences and we see

that they are interconnected with that anxiety. So there's a kind of central dynamic sequence that we

will follow. But of course it's, for me, it's the

ultimate blend of art and science coming together. Our

sessions are videotaped so we can review the sessions in between to see what we are missing. And

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obviously we take that for supervision so we can have our own blind spots explored. But of course, you

are always responding to the person in front of you, so your intervention is always built upon the last

response from the person in front of you. So it's very in the moment, very experiential.

Dr Marianne Trent (

08:07

):

Thank you. I actually did my sixth and final placement in a service offering that, and yeah, certainly the

triangles is bringing me back to that, the hidden desire

s, hidden feelings and all the conflict. And I guess

as an aspiring psychologist, being able to formulate from a variety of perspectives is so important. And I

remember having to try and get my head around these triangles. I think for my first ever placeme

nt, my

first ever adult placement and being, having the book on formulation from Johnston and Dallas and

trying to get my head around Milan and his triangles and trying to make sense of it, but it develops. And

I think being able to formulate that really h

elped me think very deeply about the, I'm feeling quite

grateful that I didn't have to record my sessions. Think of the trainee. Oh yeah. I mean I did actually on

placement one audio record some of my sessions. It is all for learning, isn't it? It's all fo

r our growth and

for our clients protection and advancement in their therapy, but it can make people feel quite

uncomfortable.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

09:16

):

I think it does ask of you to confront your own inner of course conflicts, and I'm mindful of using too

much terminology, but I guess that's super ego part of ourself, our inner pathology, our own inner parts

that again, if we wer

e to kind of use an IFS term, our own inner parts that are more critical are more

harsh. And of course it is a process. I think I actually did start recording during my training, and I think

that is exactly what you were saying to the point of what has ena

bled me to confront that is this deep

desire to actually be able to give the person in front of me the best treatment possible. So I have to be

able to see my failings and see my own contributions and the things that I haven't been aware of and

might be be

ing enacted. And since obviously learning this model, it's just such an incredible way to then

receive supervision and to be able to give supervision to others that are willing because you really have

the material in front of you. There is no kind of disto

rtion of this is how I think it went, or this is what I'm

taking from it. Yeah. But it is process and an inner journey, I think, and my own inner critic and having to

meet that and over the years actually, yeah, I think work with that and mellow it itself.

Dr Marianne Trent (

10:46

):

And does that make supervision a lengthier process than you might typically have?

Dr Suzanne Brown (

10:52

):

No. So it would be traditionally still, well, we would work to a 50 minute supervision, but actually

sometimes you migh

t show the first three minutes of your supervision tape and you would spend the

whole 50 minutes on that. Because actually as we probably know, that first opening gambit is so fully

loaded. Often the person brings, and I will start sessions without, I'm no

t intervening, I'm waiting for the

person to see what they're bringing. It's so full of material and content. So we might just spend the first

few minutes watching that. There are the times you might jump through to a place of stuckness or you

might jump t

hrough to this had an incredible effect and we got breakthrough, and what did we do to get

that? Because we want to maximise that. It's not just looking at what do I need to improve upon, it's

what do I need to maximise, what am I really good at that actua

lly I need to lean into more because this

has had a really great effect with this person.

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Dr Marianne Trent (

11:57

):

Absolutely.

It's that tweak and refine, isn't it? But yeah, it reminds me of trying to almost have the intro

session with a client beforehand and encouraging them to start the session because I think especially

with kind of the fiduciary relationships of power, peopl

e are used to deferring to the qualified

psychologist or the position the person in charge. And so for them to be able to come in and think that

they can start wherever they want to does mean you sometimes have to work with silence, which can

feel triggeri

ng, especially as a trainee or a junior member of staff, I think.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

12:35

):

Yeah. So the initial trial therapy

is what we term it. And actually that is an extended session, so that will

be three hours long typically. So you're having a three hour long session with somebody. Now in that

first part, you are really asking, what's the problems that bring you here? Let'

s be honest, people come

to therapy often because there is some suffering. And so what we are really getting clear on within that

three hours, they're having an active exposure to the therapy. First off, this is a joint assessment. Am I

going to be a good

fit for you as a therapist? And are you responsive to the model? How are you

responding to the interventions? But for me, so much of that early trial therapy is being able to look at

aspects that you're talking about there with whether it be compliance or

defiance or passivity versus

being active.

(

13:31

):

And even that initial question, what's the problem that you would like my help with? It really opens up

the person in front of you's experience to dependency. Am I going to depend on you and what has

happened in my past with the people that I did depend on

? So you write into their attachment system

as soon as they sit down opposite you, really. So yeah, the first trial therapy would always ask that and

they would then be, I suppose, help to understand that subsequent sessions, you are encouraged to be

in th

e driver's seat because if I start the session, we're working from my agenda and actually I'm here to

help the person in front of me. So I think there is a cognitive element to that because some people have

never experienced therapy, you do have to help th

em, but mostly people have agency and they don't

like to be overly controlled fully enough. We don't like that. So yeah, I think once you're clear on that

and the task of therapy and the goals of therapy and the way that you're going to get there, then you

're

really off and you're into it.

Dr Marianne Trent (

14:42

):

Yeah, absolutely. I think it probably takes a bit of unschooling

actually to work in this therapy model

because even when I was an assistant, you were encouraged to kind of plan and prep for the next

session ahead of the next one, and you might kind of go in with a session plan about what you're going

to do, but this is

the opposite of that. You've spent your time perhaps formulating, I remember writing

process notes, things like that. But this is really seeing because you don't know what's happened in a

client's life and what they've made at the previous session and whe

ther something's just blown up in

their life or whether they've had that moment of breakthrough or clarity. So it's really allowing the client

to be right where they're at then, not where they were last week.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

15:29

):

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's such a good point because for me, and I know I've had supervision where

I've then gone back into the next session t

hinking, this is how I'm going to ime. These are the defences

that are in operation, and I've got a different person in front of me, so all of a sudden I'm relating to a

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past version and actually that's caused a rupture. And so following supervision, again

, I've been able to

go back in and say, Hey, I'm really sorry I was relating to past week you and I was missing you. I wasn't

attuning to you. And that was just incredibly profound for this gentleman that I was working with. I don't

think he'd ever had any

one say sorry to him and take real ownership and accountability of I was missing

you. But I also do think a lot of this is about the therapists being willing to look at their own barriers to

emotional closeness and some of that, I'm not saying all of that

because I appreciate the diversity of

different models, but some of that can come from over preparation, control, bringing in a sheet because

it is creating such a barrier to engaging and being open and available to the person that is just in front of

you.

(

16:43

):

And can we connect human to human, heart to heart, soul to soul, right.

Dr Marianne Trent (

16:48

):

It's weird that I've chosen to wear a black roll neck top today because I never wear black. And I know

traditionally kind dynamic therapists wo

uld wear very plain colours. They might have their hair tied

back, the room would be quite bland and not too distracting. What you just said sounded quite human

and a desire to actually connect as a person. So that sounds very different than what kind of p

eople

might be imagining about the kind of Freud approach to this.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

17:17

):

Yeah. So I mean it derives from F

reud's second theory of anxiety, but the Habib Davenloo was the

person who really took Freud's. I guess he had an issue with this idea of analysis that was interminable

that would just continue on forever and said, actually, we don't just have to give way

to the resistance.

We actually need to be able to use the resistance to get to a breakthrough. And he was influenced a lot

by even Eric Lindeman's work of grief. So he had worked alongside him after the Cocoanut Grove fire

disaster. And what he could see w

as that this external event gave rise to this intrapsychic crisis. And that

is also at the heart of the theory really behind I

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that the person can really be holding? And again, I love many different

models. I'm in my own youngian

analysis, so I can think about it as how can we hold the tension of the opposites of these things?

(

18:22

):

Like a part of me wanting something, another part of me not, but actually it's designed to intensify that

intrapsychic crisis within levels that are tolerable, right? We are tracking unconscious pathways of

anxiety so that the person can actu

ally get to the core of the issue. So it's absolutely not just about

symptom management, it is really trying to resolve this at the heart of it, free the person from the

suffering so that they don't want to, in Freud's terms, the repetition compulsion that

we will find a way

to continue to put the pain and suffering in our lives because we're not aware of it. But it's the

conferences that we go to because obviously the material is filmed and I have such gratitude for the

patients that are willing to share t

hat material because it means we can all learn is honestly some of the

most heart filled emotional material I've ever seen across training. And I like to kind of keep aware and

abreast of other kind of modalities, but for me it is completely about heart to

heart connection with the

person in front of you. So very different from that blank slate cold perhaps idea that you might be

having if you hear about traditional psychoanalytic methods. Yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (

19:50

):

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Yeah. Okay. That's interesting to reflect upon. And as you were talking about apologising to the client for

missing them, I felt that kind of a visceral shift, I

felt something in my tummy. It's that connecting to

another person and being seen as important, isn't it? And that you matter and you can have an impact

on the world and you can have an impact on me. And for people that have been stuck and conflicted

and

perhaps not had the nicest, compassionate, responsive care, it's really, really important to let

people know when you've got it wrong and that you're not perfect.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

20:30

):

Yeah, absolutely. And the ability to be moved by another person. I'm thinking of times where I will show

emotion, I will tear up, I will have, and it's not in a way that the person then feels

they have to take care

of me. But in fact, that has had such a profound impact on people. And I remember in training actually

with a woman where I had been moved to tears by her experiences, and I remember she came back and

she said exactly that I had an i

mpact on you. And that had just kind of completely blown her away, that

her experiences that her really, her suffering, her pain could be felt and held and not be overwhelming

to somebody, but could just be acknowledged and seen. So I very much, I encourag

e people to be in

touch with those measures. It's very different. If I was having a reaction that was perhaps them think

about my, it has triggered something in me, then yes, I would want to be taking that to my own therapy

or supervision. But I think it's

very different just to be able to be open enough to be touched at an

emotional level because we work with the most intimate and deep emotions and feelings and

experience of a person. So how could we not be in a way, I'm kind of baffled, how could we not b

e?

Dr Marianne Trent (

22:04

):

Yeah. And I think if our audience are hearing this and thinking, is that transference? Is that

c

ountertransference? But actually you're being quite clear this is not your own stuff being triggered. So

for example, if I was working with grief, it might be making me think about having lost my dad, but it's

not that. It's just being humanly moved by wha

t you've been told and you're moved for that person

rather than moved for yourself. It's like compassionate. You'd stop someone in the street and go, are

you okay? You don't look okay. It's that human connection.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

22:39

):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's also why your own therapy, in my opinion and supervision are essential

so that you have really worked through

and are continuing to work through all of our own relational

patterns, our own disappointments, our own pains, our grief are all of that. Because we are human too.

There's no difference. There is no difference between me and the patient in front of me. We'

ve got our

own experiences and I need a place just as much as they do, of course. But again, so that I can offer the

greatest care to them. So there isn't some kind of transference reaction going on. And again, when there

is, I can come back and say, this

was my part to own in that. And I'm reflecting on that. And sometimes

you can catch it beautifully in a session. You might be in the middle of what we would think about as

projective identification.

(

23:39

):

And you are able to actually, again, if your anxiety is regulated enough, you are able to have access to

seeing what is g

oing on and then be able to bring that into the session. So, oh, I noticed I'm really being

pulled into feeling like an angry school teacher and I'm telling you often what's going on here, because

that's not usually my response. And they can then say, yeah

, that's so true. And I find myself in that all

the time. And then we're into something maybe about authority and a complex around that or a

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conflict. But to me it is just have we done enough work on ourselves as psychologists as to be able to sit

in front

of another person and to hear their experiences and be truly moved by them.

Dr Marianne Trent (

24:28

):

And I think I, I'm rig

ht in saying that clinical psychology has no requirement for you to actually have done

therapy of your own. So during my training, there was professional development groups, which as was

very well aligned and very harmonious and worked really, really well

in terms of development rather

than just conflict. That worked really well. But the other half of the cohort had a very different

experience. It didn't feel safe, it wasn't a properly, what do they say, form stormed normed group. It

was not safe. So it cou

ldn't be used like that. But counselling psychologists, I think do have to have their

own therapy. And I think it's so important. During my training, I actually had doing analysis as well. And

still some of those kind of reflections, realisations, they've

stayed with me. The only thing I didn't like if

I'm honest, is having to pay for sessions when I was on annual leave, even if it was planned months in

advance and the idea that my therapist would sit and talk or think about me in that session, that felt a

little bit not very human because it wasn't the cheapest of processes for me as a trainee.

(

25:39

):

And I think it does have a

tendency to be quite consistent in terms of day of the week, time of the week

slot. I found that hard as a user of the service.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

25:50

):

Were you able to bring it up in the therapy? Were you able to talk about it with them?

Dr Marianne Trent (

25:55

):

Yeah! I had to work through some of my rage! (laughs)

Dr Suzanne Brown (

25:57

):

Yeah, exactly. Right. And this is it. It's just such a good opportunity. Everything is an opportunity and

yeah, I dunno. I guess there's something in that initial contracting, what are we contracting to? And I just

remember saying in that, even talking abo

ut dependency, I'm just so rageful that I need to be here in the

first place. And it really did, it really kind of brought up my own dependency. And I'm pretty self

-

sufficient banks, and gosh, now I've got to rely on somebody. And yet it has become absolut

ely one of

the richest relationships with another, but also actually to facilitate the richest relationship with myself.

But I can appreciate that. And obviously I think that partly why the costs are very different. It's much

lower in psychoanalysis than i

t tends to be in clinical psychology. Yeah, I dunno. I think there's almost

something of, to me it's something about the commitment too. I have committed to this process and

now if I can't make it, my work schedule is, well actually I'm, I'm abandoning the

commitment to myself,

but I have got somebody else who I'm committed to. So I encourage the working through of the rage

too. We get there eventually one route or another. Yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (

27:16

):

And now, so I do get it as well. But yeah, it's like, yeah, thank you. Thank you for asking that question.

Cause that's really interesting in itself and kind of seeing that proc

ess play out. Yeah, it's important stuff

and it can really help people to change their lives and change their relationship so that they're not just

going around on that hamster wheel really.

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Dr Suzanne Brown (

27:38

):

Yeah, and I love, it's always, I guess ironic isn't it, that we know, let's say for instance the research says

CBT therapists go to psychodynamic therapists for their

own treatment. And I trained in intensive short

term dynamic psychotherapy, and I am in the long term, I'm seven years in. I think it's really funny, isn't

it, of how we are drawn to maybe there is something quite whole about that and kind of a wholesome

aspect of that. And I think it can truly change people's lives. And it does come down to the common

factors actually that make therapy effective. That's why I'm a big supporter of many different modalities

because actually there's many ways to be effective

. It's actually more to do obviously with things like

therapist fit and rather than the modality and how authentic it feels to the person, which is what is truly

life

-

changing, I think. But also people do get a lot of experiences of bad therapy. We'd be re

miss to not

mention that too. Yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (

28:39

):

Absolutely. And if you were to be working with an unnamed profe

ssional athlete, for example, how can

you use this to help them improve their performance in whichever sport they are engaged in?

Dr Suzanne Brown (

28:56

):

Well, I think it's exactly the same. If I'm sat down with an athlete, it would be no different to being sat

down with a patient in private practise. So I am trying to understand what is the problem and how is it I

can be of he

lp? And then what will inevitably arise is resistance. Resistance to me or resistance to

themselves about accessing deeper feeling. And of course that does translate, it ripples out into your

life. So I'm thinking of an actual, literal example of they're h

aving conflict with the coach and how can

they resolve that? Because they might be a high performer, but they're losing out access to maybe some

important information from the coach or they're keeping them at a distance or they're being avoidant

with them.

That is inevitably and has, I'm thinking of real life examples here, but is of course related to

past figures, past experiences with those in authority where they have been mistreated or disappointed

or So it's really no different in that sense of us bein

g able to sit down and face the feelings towards

those people so that they don't keep getting anxious in response to these feelings.

(

30:10

):

And then doing all sorts of defensive behaviours like acting reckless and getting a red card and being

sent off or going out and drinking and eating badly, which is not on their plan and is going to sabotage

their desires to be a better per

former, but also affect their performance and impact the team. But that's

just one example, say, because my experiences, and I think a lot of sports psychologists would at times

or have echoed this with me, that there are mental skills that can be very hel

pful, but in my experience,

people just don't use them, right? They've been taught them. And unless you're getting through and

you're able to break through that resistance, that is sometimes at the heart of the self

-

sabotage, they

aren't going to use the t

hings that are available to them. So we've got to first deal with that. Otherwise

you can teach them tools and you can talk at them, but it's not going to be of much help.

(

31:12

):

So I try to weave in these principles both in the one

-

to

-

one work, but I will run emotional fitness classes,

which also tries to normalise if you're human, this is going to relate to you. Other humans,

you might

find this useful. We might talk about boundary setting. And obviously you do need good access to

healthy anger for that. You need to be able to say no and set a boundary and assert yourself. If that

boundary is violated or transgressed at other

times, you're going to lose that championship game and

you're going to be devastated. And if you're blocking your grief to that, you might find that actually

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instead of moving through grief, you've got depressed. Isn't it going to be important for us to he

lp you

access the grief instead of going to a depressed position? So it's just so relevant because fundamentally

we're emotional creatures. So you can't dissect this from any aspect of our life.

Dr Marianne Trent (

32:07

):

Oh, Suzanne, I feel like I want to have therapy with you now is making me think of a game I watched

recently or a snippet of a game I watched recently where the

re was a biting incident or what looked like

a biting incident. And it absolutely made me in a football game case and not familiar with what I'm

talking about. Somebody I think is what making me think became frustrated and angry and acted out

with their te

eth. And it made me think about what I used to say to my children, we keep our teeth away

from people even when we're cross. It is that very basic rule, but also the word bite for children. It's

quite fun, isn't it? Bite, bite, bite. But it's about thinkin

g about when you are told no, how do you

respond? My little boy, my youngest used to take himself to the porch and head, but the wooden floor

because he knew that was a behaviour mommy couldn't ignore. He probably knew mommy was a

psychologist and she was

weird about brains. How are you going to perform and carry yourself when

you're told no or when you're dealing with big, big feelings

Dr Suzanne Brown (

33:12

):

And when the opponent is purposely trying to get you going, is using material that is going to aggravate

you, is going to get you mobilised or the referee isn't going to. Fairness is a big thing. And obviously from

a very

young age, children are very in touch with fairness and justice. And if that has been violated at a

young age, you can see where these conflicts arise. So the ref gives an unfair card or a penalty or

whatever it might be. And I think, I know there's been a

couple of biting incidents in, I mean, I'm also

thinking of the quite famous boxing incident where I guess we won't name people, but yes, it does

happen. And we would of course be thinking of that as an acting out. So this is, that is more defensive

behav

iour because the anxiety is so dysregulated that they might be feeling a primitive rage that is very

primitive, the desire to bite.

(

34:11

):

And you're talking about, this is the other beautiful thing that I'll often talk about when people say, I'm

not an angry

person, or, well, you weren't born like that. Because if you look at children, they are

absolutely in touch with the full force of their raw feelings. And I have two kids and I am bitten regularly,

Marianne, with both of them. My older one has moved out o

f that, but my younger one does. And he

had buts and he pinches and he claws. And actually it's so primitive that that pathway is there with us

right from birth. And then over time we learn that in order to preserve the connection, to preserve the

relation

ship to the people we need the most, I'm going to have to suppress this mum, dad, teacher,

coach can't tolerate whatever the feeling is. So I learn eventually just to not even notice I'm having the

feeling, but maybe, and this I think is quite chronic.

(

35:11

):

People are aware, they're anxious, or other times they've just become so used to that anxiety, they

think that's how I a

m. So if I think I can tell you, I've worked with professional footballers that will say to

me, when the ball is at my feet, I have ringing in my ears. My vision is blurry. That is an extreme level of

anxiety. They're still performing at a very high level,

but you imagine the energy that is then freed up

when they've learned to regulate their anxiety, they've looked at the feelings that are generating that.

They've got an absolutely different level of clarity and ability to perform. They're already performi

ng at

an incredibly high level, but they're absolutely crippled with anxiety. So yeah, I think it's just, it's

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essential in all areas, but we often have conflated rage and anger with the actual destructive acting out.

And I think it takes a lot of just nor

malising for people how, yeah, it's a very human normal reaction.

(

36:12

):

And part of what is quite well known, I think in I

-

S

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T

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D

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P is this idea of portraits and maybe that would

be referred to as active imagination in Jungian psychology, which is the invitation to face and feel the

feelings. So actually to be able to portrait what exactly you would like to do, that is a world

away from

doing it. So just like I might say to my son, yeah, you do really want to hit your brother, but we don't,

right? It's okay to have the feeling, but it's not okay to act out and lash in, lash out on him. Yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (

36:51

):

So interesting, interesting. Thank you. Suzanne. Is there a right or wrong stage for people to start

learning about this in their career

? Are there books that people can start reading before they begin any

kind of training? Is there, I know that for example, they don't let you train in it until you are a final year

trainee. Are there any similar rules for this?

Dr Suzanne Brown (

37:17

):

No. So I mean, there's a lot of books out there. So I suppose the people that come to my mind are, of

course Patricia Coughlin. S

he has a number of books. Alan Abbu is very well known in the field. He has a

number of books. John Frederickson is again, very well known in the field. Jose 10 have dbi and Robert

Naski have collaborated on books. The thing I would say is this is a lifelo

ng model. So I think what can

happen, and this is I suppose something we are mindful of and we speak about in the community quite a

lot, is that you can get so excitable when you come across this material and you see the videos and they

look incredible. I

mean, it's just fireworks on the screen. And because they have been practising for

decades, it does look seamless. But of course they will talk to you about, I could have gone off on this

junction and I could have gone here instead.

(

38:15

):

There's not a perfect way of doing it, but I think then the tendency is to rush in and try to apply these

and then it can go very badly becau

se this is a very potent model. And so I think there needs to be an

adequate respect for learning that and taking the time. And so the way that you train in the model, you

do go into a core training, which is three years, and then after I've done advanced

training after that,

and then I stay in contact with peer groups and I seek out supervision. But it's really getting your head

around, this is a lifelong learning. This is not going to be, you've done the three years and you're good to

go. And I think the

principles are great, but the way that you learn it is that you actually take your

videotape to material and you show it to every block.

(

39:04

):

So you're constantly getting feedback in real time of the material that you're showing. And it did really

feel like a group psychotherapy process as well. Patricia is particularly skilled at being able to bring that

group dynamic proces

s in. So again, it's like you're having your own therapy alongside it, but of course

there's a lot of material out there. She's also on YouTube, so is John Frederickson. Michelle May is

releasing a book that I think is going to be very accessible. So if pe

ople want to have a read of it and how

it's applied, I guess from her own life and as a therapist and being in therapy and go to a conference,

that's where you're really going to get to see that material. So I think I was introduced to it on the

doctorate.

I saw a video and I signed up to a conference in Sweden. I was like, right, I've got to see more

of this. This is the soonest conference I can go to, but go to a conference. Yeah, see what you make of it.

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But I guess I would just encourage a healthy cauti

on that we can get really carried away with this, but I

wouldn't want anyone to have too much hubris in thinking it's an easy model. It is very complex.

Dr Marianne Trent (

40:17

):

Yeah, it sounds it, but you have made it sound, I dunno, you obviously just a master in your field. You,

I've loved chatting with you. How can people learn more about you and connect with you on socials

if

they want to, which I'm sure they will.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

40:31

):

Oh, well, thank you. Well, I am not super active on socials. It is something I need to get better at. But

you can find me at the website www.emotionallyconnected.co.uk. I'm on X and I am on Instagram, and

we are definitely looking going into next year, I a

m partnering with some professional dancers to kind of

bring very much this embodied psychology to life. So one of the hopes is that we will have for

professionals only workshops that kind of bring together, we're calling it at the moment, story body,

soul

work, and it's really going to integrate story work with embodied movement, practise sound

healing, and encouraging people to, of course, grapple with themselves because of course, who you are

determines everything that you're able to bring into the world

. So if people want to register in trust,

they can reach out and email me.

Dr Marianne Trent (

41:29

):

That sounds amazing. I w

ill absolutely be on the waiting list for that. Thank you so much for your time.

I've loved chatting with you. What an absolute privilege to have spent this time with you. And yeah, I

feel like our audience are incredibly lucky to have had you as a guest b

ecause yeah, you've just been

wonderful. So thank you.

Dr Suzanne Brown (

41:49

):

Well, thank you for what you are doing and br

inging many voices to this space, so it's very much needed.

So I appreciate you having me on.

Dr Marianne Trent (

41:58

):

Thank

you. And on brand, I'll say thank you, Suzanne. That makes me feel very seen, very important.

Thank you. You're welcome. Oh gosh, what an amazing experience that was speaking with Dr. Suzanne.

Please do go and follow her on social and check out her websit

e too. What do you think to this episode?

Has this wet your whistle to learn more? Has it made you think about the importance of accessing your

own therapy or perhaps your accessing this episode because you are considering I

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S

-

T

-

D

-

P as a therapy

approach f

or yourself? Has it sealed the deal for you? Please do let me know. Drop me a comment. If

you're on Spotify, you can drop a comment as well. And if you are on Apple Podcast, please do rate and

review wherever you get your podcast. Please do follow the show

. It really is the kindest thing you can

do for totally free for any podcaster that you appreciate.

(

42:56

):

If you would like

to come along to the Aspiring Psychologist community, which is my free Facebook

group and is the exclusive home of Marianne's Motivation and Mindset sessions, please do so. You'd be

so welcome. Thank you so much for being part of my world. If you'd like a

little bit more and you are

ready for the next step, please do consider the Aspiring Psychologist membership, which you can join for

just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term, and you can always access all of the replay content

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since the launch of the m

embership too. Please do check out the Aspiring Psychologist book and the

Clinical Psychologist book the May. Well be another book on the way at some point soon too. You heard

it here first. I love providing this content for you. Please do let me know what

you think, and if you

wanted to buy me a cup of tea to say thank you, there's a link in the description for how you can do

that, or there's a link on any of my socials for my link tree too, if

Jingle Guy (

44:14

):

With Dr.