What is health psychology? How do you train as a health psychologist?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

Coming up on today's episode, we are looking at health psychology. What is it? What does it involve? How do you do it? Do you get paid? And what are the differences across the UK for how the courses are set up? I am interviewing an end stage health trainee psychologist, and the conversation is lively, wholesome, and nourishing. We talk about grief, we talk about death, we talk about strength, we talk about wellness, and of course health psychology. It is a wonderful listen and I hope you find it so useful.

(: 00:37

Welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. Thank you so much for listening, for watching. It's one of my key responsibilities I feel for this podcast to illuminate different areas of professional psychology qualifications and one that we haven't covered as yet, but I have been very keen to do so is health psychology. Let's dive in. I hope you find this episode as beautiful as I found it to record. I will catch you on the other side. Just want to welcome along Nicola O'Donnell, the podcast. Hi Nicola.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 01:17

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:19

Well, thank you so much for saying yes. I really wanted to talk to you primarily because you're a trainee health psychologist, but I know you've got so much more going on that's going to be really interesting for me to listen to and speak with you about, but also, of course, our audience as well. So before we crash into some of that, could you tell us a little bit about you and how you got into psychology?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 01:45

Yes. It's always such, I feel like such a long journey for so many people to get into psychology and to qualify or nearly qualify as is the case for me. So thinking back in preparation for today, I first started studying psychology in 2010 when I took it for my A level and just fell in love with the subject and felt like for the first time in my life it was something that I was good at. I was always sort of pretty average at school, but when I started doing psychology, thought, oh, actually this is something that I want to do. So I decided to go to university to study it further. So in 2012, I did my undergraduate at the University of Kent, applied psychology with clinical psychology. And I think the crunch point for me within that was I did a placement year. So I did a four year undergraduate and for the third year, spent a whole year working in the NHS, kind of as an assistant psychologist within paediatrics and just absolutely loved it and solidified that this is what I want to do as a job.

(: 03:09

So I mean, I think I can go into more if I'm not talking too much, but I was really lucky and completely credit my placement year to the fact that I was successful in getting an assistant psychologist job immediately after my undergraduate course. So I started a assistant role in CAMHS, so child and adolescent mental health services, and they very kindly encouraged me to do a further qualification in low intensity CBT. So I was quickly in getting experience working with children and young people one-to-one their families offering low intensity cognitive behaviour therapy, particularly for things like low mood and anxiety, but also working within a wider eating disorder service as well. So I was really lucky to get quite a lot of hands-on experience quite quickly. So for a long time I didn't know what health, I didn't know that health psychology was a thing.

(: 04:16

I didn't know that it existed. I always knew that I was interested in working psychologically in health settings, but I thought that clinical psychology would be the only way to do that. And I actually applied for clinical psychology doctorate on three occasions and was offered interviews and twice a reserve place that never came through to joining a course, which I found really, really hard at the time. But I'm very grateful now that it kind of led me in a different direction in discovering what health psychology is and how to go about becoming a health psychologist, which I'm sure we'll talk about today. So I enrolled on my master's in 2020, so Covid did my whole master's at UCL, but from home, which was challenging, but also gave me something to do I suppose during lockdown and then later enrolled on my final stage of training stage two in 2022, which I will qualify from hopefully next month. So all coming to an end very soon. Haven't even mentioned the PhD in that, but

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:42

We'll come back to the PhD in a moment. So thank you so much. That's really, really interesting. And as you talk, I'm like you have travelled quite a lot for your career, haven't you? I know just before we hit record, you were like, oh, I've just moved from Suffolk and now I'm actually up north and there's been some other, I think you said your undergrad was Kent, so there's been a lot of movement and that is not uncommon in the psychology field as well. But just to follow up on what you said about your UCL distance learning, so that's for your health psychology professional qualifications, it starts as a master's and then it sounds like there's an additional bit. Could you tell us about that and how that extra bit works? Do some people not choose to do that, I presume? So you can go on and be registered as a practitioner psychologist with the HCPC, that's why you do the extra bit, is it?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 06:33

Yeah, so in order to practise as a health psychologist, you have to do both what's known as stage one and stage two. And I'm really passionate about explaining this in hopefully an accessible way because I think compared to lots of other psychology training routes, health psychology is really confusing. You have to do a lot of digging around to find out how you actually enrol to become a health psychologist. And it's something that I'm asked on a weekly basis, how does it all work and how do I go about doing it? So from the beginning, you obviously have to do an undergraduate in psychology, which you would do for all roots of further psychology training and helpful to have some experience working clinically as well in order to make sure, firstly that you enjoy the subject, but also to give you some real life, real world experience of what a psychologist does and applying some of those theoretical concepts that you spend so long learning about into real life and working with real people.

(: 07:45

And then the masters that I mentioned is the stage one of doctoral training. So this is usually a year full-time, and it's really important that everyone who wants to become a health psychologist does this because it gives you that broad grounding of major health psychology theories and concepts, and that is accredited by the BPS, the British Psychological Society, just like an undergraduate usually would've been. And some people stop there, some people go on and do lots of varied and interesting things from that. But if you want to practise as a qualified health psychologist, you need to do what's known as stage two. And this is where it gets a bit complicated because there's lots of different ways that you can do that. And I'll obviously speak more about the way that I've done it, but I'll give a brief overview of the different ways you can do it because I think this is the thing that people find most confusing.

(: 08:48

So the first option is doing a doctorate in health psychology at a university. I think quite like clinical psychology. You have a structured training programme, you have a cohort of peers, and you access your training in this way. I did not do that. The second option is the what's known as the independent route, and that takes a minimum of two years. And instead of being attached to a course and a university, you're attached to a supervisor under the BPS. And you have two years at least of structured and supervised practise in order to meet the health psychology competencies, which are professional practise, consultancy, psychological interventions, research and teaching and training. And many people like me do this alongside an academic PhD so that you get a dual qualification and can utilise your PhD to fulfil the stage two research competency. But equally, you can do just the stage two on its own without the PhD, but I suppose it's worth knowing that you can't use the title of doctor if you haven't done the PhD with that independent route.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:10

I see.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 10:11

So that's what I did. That

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:12

Is quite confusing.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 10:15

And that's not even all the options. It's another two.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:18

Go for it. Tell me the other two. I'm sorry, go for it.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 10:22

So the health education England as of two years ago have a funded programme, which I suppose is the draw because the others are self-funded, which is aiming to apply health behaviour change to NHS workforce redesign. So I think there's seven funded places in England for that. So that's the relatively new route. And then there's an NHS seven

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:46

Funded. Do you mean seven funded courses or literally seven funded places for the whole of

Nicola O'Donnell (: 10:52

England? Yeah, seven people, yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:54

Oh my days. That's not a lot. Is there? Yeah,

Nicola O'Donnell (: 10:57

Not a lot. So I think are they

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:59

Remote? Are they in person or are they attached to one particular university?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 11:04

So they're attached to an individual area within or region within England. So again, I won't speak too much to it. I am not doing this route, but my understanding is that each trainee is allocated to an area like the east of England, and then they do their work within that particular area focusing on workforce redesign within the NHS. So not many people are funded to do that, but I think it is a growing way to become a health psychologist and one that hopefully will gain more and more funding as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 11:43

But they're flying solo then, so they haven't got someone else living locally seven across England, so they're probably living in very different areas of the country.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 11:54

Although I do think from knowing people that are on that training route, that they have a really strong and supportive network between them. But yeah, geographically very spread apart. And then the last route to NHS Scotland, which Scotland seemed to be so far ahead in their psychology, they've been offering funded training for years. And that is very similar to clinical psychology in the way that you are employed under the NHS offering health psychology services as a trainee. So lots of different ways that you can go about becoming a health psychologist and not always very clear. That's amazing.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 12:37

The differences. No, but actually really, really important. And it sounds like this episode is so overdue because actually if you are getting asked that a lot, I didn't know this stuff and I'm another professional psychologist, so this is really, really timely. So thank you for illuminating us about the pathways other than Scotland. And other than the seven places that you may or may not be lucky enough to get, does that mean that you are having to work? Does that mean that you are eligible to claim student support, finance, all of that just or do you just need to be hoping that you've got an employer who will pay or a generous aunt? How does it come about? How does it come together?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 13:24

And I think that's another thing that is really unclear for a lot of people. So as I mentioned, some of the routes are funded, so that isn't something that those trainees have to consider for people on the doctorate courses, you are able to apply for post-doctoral loans. And speaking to a friend doing that yesterday, she said, at the moment you are able to claim, I think about 28,000 pounds across the course of your doctorate to help live and work and pay for the course. And the independent route is self-funded. So that's what I've done. I think it's always a struggle advising people on this because I feel like I've got quite a unique situation when it came to funding and it isn't a particularly cheerful situation, but essentially, very sadly, my dad died in 2020 and that enabled me to pay for my training, but also work as a researcher and have done throughout my course to top the top up my living expenses alongside my PhD stipend that I have as well. So I kind of have juggled a lot of different things in order to make it work over the last few years, which isn't easy, but it is doable.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:56

Yeah, I'm so sorry to hear about your dad. I lost my dad in 2017 and it's not easy. We're young women, you are even younger than me. It isn't easy. And especially I think losing someone at that time of the pandemic, it's really, really tricky. I like you received some inheritance from my father, which meant that I was able to pay for my EMDR training. And so I feel like every kind of trauma intervention, every time I'm on TV doing anything trauma related, any client work, my dad's with me and I really, really like that. He'd always been so supportive of my career. He always wanted to hear what I was up to and obviously not disclosing clinical information, but he was always my fiercest supporter. And so I hope that you have that experience and I hope that you still have that felt sense of your dad throughout your studies. And I think when you qualify after all of this time, it's going to be even more emotional. You're suddenly in a position where you're able to get paid in one job to do one job and suddenly you don't have academic assignments, you don't have thesis, you don't have all these different things. I just feel like you're going to just, there'll be a realisation and you'll have a really good cry and it'll just be a very special messy time, but so much to be proud of.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 16:15

Yeah, no, I dunno. I think I won't know what to do with myself. And yeah, I'm really sorry to hear about your dad as well. It is such a hugely difficult thing, I think whatever age you are, but I think particularly I was only 25 at the time and it is really difficult and I think what you said is so accurate actually I feel like he would really like that his money has led me to train in the profession that I've always wanted to. So yeah, it's a really nice reminder of that when things feel particularly difficult I suppose.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:54

It really does. It really does. And I randomly just, I can connect to my dad with my weird knobbly wrists. I have strangely knobbly wrists and it was when my dad was unwell in hospital, I was like, oh, I've always looked at your knobbly wrists and mine. But I've never quite realised where they've come from, but he has them as well. And just small things like that that I've got two children as well. And one of 'em is really sad that he didn't really get to know grumpy norm and Grampy Norm didn't get to know him. But I'm still so thankful that I got for him to be a grandparent to three children at the time that he died, we had it, we've got a niece and now we've got two others as well as we've, we've quite a big family. I've got two and my brother's got three in case that wasn't clear.

(: 17:39

But yeah, it's really, really difficult. And actually it feels like is an appropriate time to mention a charity that I've worked with called It;s Time, I dunno if you've heard of them, but they're on Instagram and they specialise in supporting the bereavement, grief and loss needs of people who've lost parents at 25 or below. So they support people that have lost in child in their own childhood, but actually is uniquely destabilising being younger and losing a parent because what a lot of their people that they support or experiences, even when they go to university, they might be coming home but not really coming home and parent might meet a new partner and then downsize or move that it means that there's not actually any room for them. It's a very unique process and can feel very alienating. And actually one of the things that's helped me grow up the most and helped me advance clinically probably is losing my dad. But you don't know until you know it. I didn't know that I was a worst clinician. I didn't know that I was a worse human. I didn't know that. But actually I quite liked the naivety of that. So yes, I've grown, yes, I've developed its post-traumatic growth, but I probably would rather, I'd rather be a worse human and still have my dad. You know what I mean?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 19:02

Yeah, definitely. And I think just agree with everything that you say and it's so good to hear about charities that are supporting that age group because although I didn't specifically access a charity, I think particularly between 20 and 25, there's such a gap in services for things like grief because you're not a child and you're not properly necessarily an adult either, and you kind of are a between services and it's not the norm for a parent to die when you are that age. So your friends can't really thankfully relate either. So I think it's really great that there's charities out there working specifically with that age range. I think that's really great.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:47

You don't want them to be able to relate. It's a weird position, they don't really get it and you want to be supported, but you know that they can't necessarily, unless they're very, very special, they can't necessarily support you in the way that you might need. It's a very, very strange time. But thank you so much for being so honest about that we are humans first and we're psychologists second, but it often is part of our why isn't it? And I think that's, thank you for being so raw, so vulnerable, so honest, and I know this will resonate with so many people. Can we think a little bit about what health psychology is? What might give us a few examples of ideal client avatars as we say in marketing? What sort of work could we hope to achieve? So you've mentioned kind of service redesign and stuff, which isn't really something I'd considered from a health angle, but it'd be useful to get an overview of clinical work as well.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 20:45

Yeah, and I think it's worth saying that health psychologists often work in so many different settings that I definitely won't be able to touch on them all. But I suppose broadly health psychology as a discipline is relatively young compared to many others like clinical or counselling psychology, the roots that people are perhaps more familiar with. But in simple terms, health psychology is really the study of how our thoughts, our emotions, behaviours, and our social factors like relationships, culture influences socioeconomic status, interact to affect our physical health. So it's all about understanding how our mental and emotional wellbeing can impact our overall physical wellbeing and vice versa and exploring how people stay healthy, why they get ill and how they respond once they are unwell as well. So I think quite a big part of health psychology is firstly helping people to make healthier behavioural choices.

(: 21:52

So whether that's stopping smoking, exercising more to manage stress cope when they are diagnosed with illnesses like cancer and to improve their overall physical and mental quality of life more broadly. For example, in my clinical work whilst on training, I've worked with people who are either undergoing cancer treatment or are in remission from cancer and thinking about what is going on for them, particularly in terms of their worries, their thoughts and feelings around their recovery and things particularly in cancer about recurrence. So I guess that's not too dissimilar to how a clinical psychologist might work with someone, but also thinking about motivation to change certain behaviours as well. So you might have someone who has had cancer but is still engaging with smoking or is perhaps needing to lose some weight for their health and how motivated they are to change and how you can support them to move beyond intending to make changes to actually going and doing them. Because we know that intentions, you can have the best intentions in the world, but it doesn't necessarily always lead to doing something different. So working out why that might be is an example of something that a health psychologist might do.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 23:20

Thank you. That's so illuminating and it's really reminded me of my doctoral research, which was actually, it was clinical, but it probably also would've fitted nicely within health. It's probably probably more relevant to health actually. It was looking at the health change behaviours that a spouse might or might not make after their long-term partner has had a serious stroke with my thinking that what we're looking at in stroke is modifiable and non-modifiable risk factors. And when something so awful happens that somebody is incapacitated, my sense was how does that not make you go, gosh, well I'm going to exercise more, I'm going to quit smoking, I'm going to think about my BMI, all of those things. And there was some post-traumatic growth from that. People really welcomed the social support that they had as a result of that. But the general findings were no, they don't tend to look at their own modifiable risk factors.

(: 24:30

And when we were exploring that, it was all done during grounded theory and was one-to-one interviews and they were like, there's just no time for me. There's not that time for me to be able to focus on myself. There's lots of sitting around in hospitals initially and then that feels awful. And then they come home and then you realise that that's the real journey. There's so much stress, there's learning to be, well it's grief isn't it, the loss of a spousal relationship. And then trying to think about what aspects of that you can keep alive and around. And then obviously being someone's carer and if there's no tricky, isn't it? I'm sure you are well aware that people who own their homes, often they're in a position where they're not eligible to receive any in England certainly receive any free social care. And so you might get in a position where you are having to support your husband or your wife or your long-term partner with their personal care, even though you wouldn't want that. They wouldn't want that, but otherwise you're going to have to sell your home and even then you'd be too wealthy to be able to afford to get the free social care. It sounds like a case of my diamond shoes are too tight, but it's really not like that in reality, is it?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 25:43

No, I think, and that's just a perfect example of how complex situations are in reality for people receiving a diagnosis of any kind of serious illness on its own, it's devastating, but then it's obviously impacting the people around you. If you have people around you that is your finances ability to work. The stigma that potentially comes up changes in relationships with friends as well. I mean it goes on and on and on. There's so much of an impact isn't there when there's illness involved, which is of course what health psychology is often focused on people who are physically unwell and then that understandably has an impact on their mental health as well. If you're not well and all these other things are happening, it's not going to feel great. So obviously very normal to feel not great emotionally, but that can then become a problem in itself as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:47

Yes, indeed. Can I feel like I talk to you all day, it's so easy to talk to. I'm so interested in everything you're talking about. Has it made you think about you own health, your own mortality? My little boy, we were at McDonald's party the other day and he said, can we have some nuggets to share as well as my food? And I was like, no, no baby. We're here for a long time, not just a good time. And my friend who I was with, she was like, I'm not, I'm just here for a good time. And I'm like, there's differences isn't there? But for me, generally I try to raise my boys to think about their eating, not to be really, really hyper-focused. The fact that we're in McDonald's to begin with, we're clearly not that virtuous, but I really do. I think especially since the pandemic just before we met, I'm just back from my second personal training session of the week.

(: 27:47

I've never been fitter, stronger or healthier than I am at the age of 42. And I absolutely love that. I wish I'd been more interested in exercise when I was younger. It wasn't really a big part of my family growing up. It is something that boys did really. Boys went to football and girls might do netball, but just a dabble here and there and my mom's always cooked from scratch. There's lots of lentils, lots of kind of whole foods and all of that jazz. So I think I had good input at an early age and I learned to cook from an early age, but I was coasting. I was never that intentional. I was never that purposeful. And really it's only over the last four years that I have become so, and I'm so proud that I am strong. So almost a year ago I broke my arm falling off my bike and I'm just rubbish my first break at the age of 41, I was then, but I really used this last year to think about getting stronger, getting healthier again and getting back to where I am and I'm absolutely there and very long wobbled question, but how has this impacted on your own health journey if that's not too personal a question to ask?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 28:59

I think it's not something that I immediately thought of particularly my interests and where I've ended up in health psychology have been quite focused on specific areas like cancer, on paediatrics as well. So things that aren't directly linked to me thankfully. So it's not something that's in my mind on a day-to-day basis. But I suppose definitely within the masters that was, as I mentioned during covid when health and health behaviour was for the first time ever, probably in the mainstream, something that everyone was thinking about. It definitely made me think about myself as a person and the people around me in terms of our fitness and health. And as I was saying this, I hadn't linked it before, but during Covid I for the first time ever having not been someone that was ever good at running or sport or anything, decided to train for triathlon.

(: 30:01

So I guess inadvertently it did influence me and think about my motivations and I think for lots of young women, and this is probably a whole topic in itself for another day, that a lot of young women and certainly amongst my friends, we have conversations about societal expectations on women around weight and body image and growing up in a certain era and sort of diet culture and having to look a certain way being quite ingrained in a lot of us, it was interesting to think about my motivations and training for an event like a triathlon moving away from things like weight and how you look to ability being strong and being generally fit and well rather than so exercising for health rather than for image. So I think that's definitely something that came up and is something that is more on my radar definitely through health psychology.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 31:08

Absolutely. And the word for me that is conjured up when you are speaking is vibrant. I want to be vibrantly healthy, I want to be strong. And that might not mean that I'm the skinniest I could ever be. It's not about that. It's about knowing that my body is capable and is am I'm able to do all the things I want to do, pick up my children even though one of 'em 10, but insist on being carried sometimes I want to be, like I said, I want to be here for a long time, not just a good time. And whilst absolutely you've been speaking about locus of control, often a lot of the work that you are doing sounds like it's with people who haven't had a locus of control for their illness. But actually I would love the idea that if I face an untimely end that my body's in such a great condition that I'm able to be a really brilliant organ donor. So I'm not just looking after myself now I'm looking after hopefully future people. If I have an untimely end, I don't want that to happen. Let's not let that come to fruition. But I am here to enrich my own world, other people to be here for my family, but I'm looking after myself

Nicola O'Donnell (: 32:23

And I think so much is about that prevention work as well. So you are hopefully reducing your likelihood of developing preventable illnesses and if you are in a situation of being diagnosed with something that your body is fit and well enough to cope with that illness in itself, but also the treatment as well. So I think it definitely puts you into a different perspective thinking about health and things that you can do behaviorally to try and improve your health outcomes as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 33:00

Yeah, absolutely. Even when I broke my arms, this one, my left arm, it's all bad. I can't see which is which one here, but I can only get it to here to begin with because what we often don't really realise is even within two days of not using our bodies as we usually would do our tendons all shrink and contract, don't they? And our muscles start to waste her out because we are conserving that energy, the body. That's why physio told me at the time the body goes, oh, we're not using that. Let's not waste that, let's save that. Let's almost reabsorb that. So the body is trying to be really helpful and smart, but actually means that it takes so much more to stretch those tendons, to stretch that body again once you have lost that fitness. So to begin with, I'm not wearing the best dress for, I probably can't demonstrate it very well.

(: 33:48

This is terrible if you're listening to it, but if you're watching it on YouTube, it's great. I couldn't get it beyond there, but now I can fully touch my shoulder again, which actually when I first started the physio, she didn't think I would necessarily get to based on where I was, but I wasn't prepared. So I didn't get NHS physio, I wasn't prepared to settle for an arm that didn't bend. So thankfully I was in a position where I was able to pay for some private physio. But it's really empowering people to know that even though you might not have the best outcomes, you can do something, you can take action to make it different hopefully.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 34:30

Yeah, and you mentioned locus of control and I'm well aware, this is very geeky thing to say, but locus of control and health, locus of control are definitely two of the models that I like a lot and draw on a lot. And I think often when it comes to health, when people feel quite powerless, people feel like they haven't got much say in what's happening to them, what their treatment is. And I suppose in the past there was much more of a sort of a medical model of I'm a doctor, I'm a professional and I'm going to do to you what I think is best and you will just do it. Whereas now there's much more of a dialogue of, well what do you think? What would be best for you? Taking into account a person as a whole and giving them some of that control, which ultimately is going to make you feel psychologically more able to cope and hopefully lead to better outcomes as well. So think control is such a huge thing in so many aspects of life and health as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 35:30

It really is. And as you spoke, I was thinking about when I first heard of the term locus of control and it was during my A level psychology and I also heard about Loftus and the bystander effect and all of that jazz, which brings us nicely into the fact that you also do psychology tutoring as well. Don't you tell our audience. So we do actually have a level students listening, we have undergraduate students listening. We sometimes have GCSE psychology students listening. I know it's not super common, but we really have got a wide range of people. We also have qualified psychologists who listen too. But something that's cropped up with me working with young people is that they believe that accessing a tutor is cheating. And I've sort of always tried to say, what about the Olympic athletes who have coaches? Is that cheating too? And they're like, no, but how can people give themselves permission to optimise their performance and access appropriate tutoring? And why is that important?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 36:30

Yeah, and I think it's really important to think about because a lot of people, as you say, either don't know that it is an option to have a tutor alongside wherever it is that you are learning your course, whether it's school or college or somewhere else, but also have lots of different ideas about whether it's allowed, whether it's giving you more of an advantage than it should, et cetera, et cetera. So I think firstly to say loads of people have tutoring and I think it's important to say it's not always accessible to everyone because it's not free, but there is free resources out there that are accessible to everyone but one-to-one tutoring like I offer through a platform called First Tutors. What happens is people usually get in touch with me, I say most often they're A level students, but sometimes it's undergraduate or even master's students as well.

(: 37:27

And sometimes that's because people are struggling with a very specific aspect of their course, whether that's statistics, that's a common one or whether they're just struggling with the subject as a whole and want to give themselves some more time to improve their understanding, have the chance to ask questions that there might be no time for at school or maybe you feel quite shy about asking questions in front of all your peers. Lots of different reasons. So tutoring and the chance to spend an hour one-to-one with someone who hopefully knows a bit about the subject can be really helpful for people. And I was just tutoring someone this morning who I've worked with throughout the entirety of her A level. And that's not to say that she was struggling at all, I'd think quite the opposite. She's actually very able and is looking to do the best she possibly can.

(: 38:28

So uses the sessions to work on not so much understanding the concepts but developing critical evaluation of psychological concepts. Whereas I've had people I tutor in the past who really sometimes regret choosing psychology as a subject and feel like they don't have the understanding of just sort of key concepts. And having that time and space to work through those at their own pace can just help them to sometimes have a real light bulb moment and think, oh actually I do get it and I will be able to sit my exam. So I think lots of people have it and it's totally okay to do so

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:11

I wish I'd had it. And actually the more and more I learn about myself as an adult and the more I learn about neurodiversity, I think I probably do fulfil the diagnostic criteria for ADHD. And when it got to the A levels, I actually really missed that accountability of the teachers making you do the work. Once it was up to me to put that accountability in place, I wasn't very good at it. The unstructured time I found really difficult to manage and I would often be just lounging around or having a nap in the common room that's not that useful. But also because I was working on a Saturday and a Sunday and sometimes a Tuesday after work at Boots the Chemist and also I had a boyfriend and I wanted to see my friends. I think I had just too much on my plate and so I was probably very tired, but I could have done with the time that I was studying to be more accountable, more focused and more productive. I only got a C at a level. I believe I was capable of a much higher grade, but I just feel like I wasn't quite getting to the levels that you need to be able to get to. And I got a low two one at university for very much the same reasons. I feel like I was capable of much more, but I needed some help and some support to be more structured.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 40:32

And I think that is such a valid point as well because it's not just about the subject itself, let alone the fact that most people are studying more than one A level. So it's not just the psychology that they need to think about, it's what's going on the rest of the time in your life when you are 16, 17, 18. Other things are usually going on both externally but also in terms of your inner thoughts and how you feel about yourself and the world and what you've got to do. So it's really hard to balance that. And I wanted to just touch on what you said about what grades you got at both a level and undergraduate. I think people tend to think, well, I'm not getting an A star so I can't do psychology and I definitely can't be a psychologist and that's definitely not the case.

(: 41:26

Whilst I got an A at psychology, I didn't get an A in any other A level I missed. My university was absolutely devastated, thought it was the end of the world. And I'm still in touch with my A level psychology teacher today and every year on results day she texts me and says, I've never seen anyone so devastated as you were. I was in clearing, I went to university through clearing and then got a first class degree. So it doesn't matter if things don't always go to plan, you obviously need to work hard throughout, but you don't always need to be getting the top grades everywhere to be a good psychologist in the end.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:13

Yeah, I hear you. And I think I'm a reasonable psychologist and I still didn't get the best grades I did all right at GCSEs, but I think it was that accountability and I think I was so excited by secondary school. I worked really hard for year seven, year eight and year nine and then I was bit bored of it, ready for a new challenge. So I probably still didn't work as hard in my GCSEs as actually I would've done if I'd sat them in year seven better then. But yeah, thank you so much for your time today. I felt like this has been a really nourishing, beautiful, wholesome exploration of health psychology and existential matters too. Have you got any advice for people if they're to avoid burnout on the way to psychology or even within psychology?

Nicola O'Donnell (: 43:01

Tough question and I think something that personally I've definitely struggled with at times, I think, I dunno what you think, but people who are aspiring to be or are psychologists tend to be quite hardworking, quite keen to be supportive of other people giving and think if you don't look after yourself within that, that can lead you into all sorts of issues. Particularly if part of your job involves supporting people through really challenging emotional difficulties, it can be hard to remember to look after yourself within that. So I suppose the first thing is being aware of that. And if you do have tendency to push yourself quite hard, whatever stage you're at, whether it's A level or post qualified, I'd always say again, accessibility is a problem, but having your own therapy has been really, or is really important for me in understanding myself, why I might react in certain ways and how to look after myself, but also just making time for yourself as well. And that sounds like a really cliche piece of advice, but I think I'm always tempted to do everything now and get everything done now. And unless something is imminently urgent or risky, I think it can wait for five minutes an hour or until tomorrow and it's not going to go anywhere. So I suppose being aware of yourself, knowing what helps you, and just taking a bit of time to stop and think before you keep rushing to do things, which I definitely still have to remind myself of.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 44:51

Absolutely. Such beautiful advice. And if people want to connect with you or follow you, where's the best place for them to do that? You mentioned the place that you do tutoring through. Feel free to mention more about how people can find you if they're like, I want Nicola to be my tutor. Give yourself a little advert. That's absolutely fine.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 45:09

So tutoring wise, first tutors, if you just give that a Google and put Nicola O'Donnell in, you'll find me. So in six weeks time I will all being well qualify as a health psychologist. Had my Viva invitation yesterday, so you can find me on LinkedIn, just Nicola O'Donnell. I also do a lot on Twitter and on Instagram I post a lot about being a health psychologist, the training routes and all sorts of what a health psychologist actually

Dr Marianne Trent (: 45:43

Does. Thank you so much. I've absolutely adored speaking with you today and I feel like there's so many shared interests that it's felt really, I dunno, this just really resonated with me and it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you, wishing you the very best of luck for your Viva. There is an episode on the podcast series about how to prepare optimally for your Viva. I'm sure you probably know it all already.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 46:03

I have listened. It was very helpful.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 46:05

Have you? Oh good. Thank you. And obviously anyone listening or watching, please do take a listen. Thank you so much for your time, Nicola.

Nicola O'Donnell (: 46:15

Thank you for having me. It's been really nice to speak to you

Dr Marianne Trent (: 46:17

Honestly. I just love that I feel, I feel warm, I feel connected. I know that Nico and I had a lot in common, some similar overlaps, but I just hope that you feel that way about this episode as well. If you do, please take a moment to rate the podcast, to review the podcast, and to subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you are listening to or watching it on because it helps us to reach a wider audience and it's the single most valuable thing that you can do for any podcast that you enjoy. If you like the way that I think, the way that I talk and you think that I might be able to help you meet some of your future or current career goals, these do check out the Aspiring Psychologist collective book, the Clinical Psychologist Collective book, the Aspiring Psychologist membership, and of course, remember all of those wonderful back issues of the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. Thank you so much for being part of my world. Come and let me know what you think to this episode by connecting on socials. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, absolutely everywhere and come and let me know what you think to this episode in my free Facebook group, the Aspiring Psychologist Community. You can listen to the next episode from 10:00 AM on Saturdays on YouTube, and from 6:00 AM on Mondays as an mp. Three. Thank you so much. Stay kind to yourself and I'll see you very soon.

Jingle Guy (: 47:50

If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be guide this podcast on psych.