What Happens During an HCPC FTP Investigation? Emotional and Legal Insights - Fitness to Practise

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

A fitness to practise investigation can feel like your whole world is falling apart, but it doesn't have to. In this episode, I'm joined by a legal expert to explore what psychologists need to know before the HCPC comes knocking. Whether you are under investigation, your concerned about someone else's practise, or you just want to feel more prepared, this conversation is well worth staying tuned for. Hope you find it super useful. Welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Now, in order to be able to say that to you, it means that in the UK I am registered and regulated with and by what's called the HCPC, which comes with a whole set of standards, protocols, and guidance. But what happens if people do not stick to their professional codes of conduct? What happens if things get a bit wobbly? Well, we do have a regulatory body for a reason, and today we are taking a deep dive into that process. So with no further ado, let's cut to our chat and I will catch you on the other side. I just want to welcome along our guest for today, Nicholas Sterling. Hi Nicholas.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 01:19

Hello, how are you going?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:21

I'm really well, thank you. I hope you are well too. So thank you for pitching this podcast episode to me. Could you firstly tell us in case people are not aware, what or who are the HCPC?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 01:36

Okay, so the Health and Care Professions Council is a regulatory body, so it's actually a statutory body, meaning it's created by a government statute, which is governed healthcare professionals. Now, there's about 14 different professions that governs. It used to govern social workers as well, which is a big one, but that now is governed by Social Work England. So essentially if you in contact with someone in relation to your health outside of nurses and doctors, the person you're in contact with is likely governed by the HCPC. So it's a regulator with government powers. And the reason why that's useful to understand is that if the HCPC requests a document as a regulator, they do have the powers of government, meaning that they can make sure that you give it to them. It's been around for quite a while now. It used to be called the HCP.

(: 02:26

It's a body that I think it's worth understanding just from the outset. It's a body that's essentially set up to protect the public. Now, as a psychologist or another healthcare professional, your dealings with the HCPC can often be a little bit negative, meaning that they're asking for money, they're raising fees, which is a common complaint. But essentially, if we understand that the purpose of the HCPC is as a public protection body, so it's there essentially to make sure that those people that you work with at fellow psychologists or if you are working within the NHSA radiologist or a podiatrist or a paramedic, that they are of particular standards. So what we really want as a society, I think, is people knowing how to do their jobs. So there'll be various standards that each person has to meet in order to be able to be registered by the H CCP C. So I think overall it's a really positive idea how it's actually, how they perform their duties can be difficult for people to understand. Sometimes it can often be underfunded, meaning that people, if a complaint's raised against someone, it can take a long time to process. You may have different case managers, so you can become quite frustrated with 'em. But overall, it's a body there to protect the public. I think that's the best way of analysing it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:47

Amazing. And is it all funded by the people it's regulated or is there some funding from government, for example? That might be a question. You dunno the answer, but I just, yeah, I wondered that.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 03:58

My understanding is it's primarily funded and almost exclusively funded by its members. I mean, I wouldn't absolutely quote me on that, but from my experience, having worked with the HCPC, that's the understanding staff have. And as you guys are obviously well aware, psychologists who are listening, it cost a fair bit of money to be a member of the H CCP C. So that's in theory where your money is going. I mean, there are shareholders and the like, but essentially it's there for the good of its own professions. So it's not there to make money.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:32

Okay. But that said, if anyone's listening to this and you are working in the UK and you're using one of the protected titles as a psychologist, that would be, for example, clinical psychologists, counselling psychologists, forensic psychologists. There's a few more as well. But those are protected titles. And if you have that qualification, you're using that title, you must be registered and regulated by the HCPC. This is not optional. And actually if you see somebody, you using one of those titles and you don't think that they are appropriately qualified in this country to be using that, you can contact the HCPC to make some inquiries about whether that person is acting with integrity, should we say. So yeah, I am registered with the HCPC, which means that I will get renewal documents once a year. So that's when they drop into my email inbox. I will get information about payments when they're due, when I've paid them. Sometimes people get told that they have got to do a CPD audit, continuing professional development, but one other time when people might hear from the HCPC might be if they have had a fitness to practise issue lodged against them. But as you are going to US data, you can actually also do that yourself. You can nominate yourself for that. Could you tell us a little bit about what this fitness to practise process is like? Please, Nick?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 06:10

Yeah, I mean it's something that I think it, it's very relevant for all people regulated by the HCPC to have a general understanding of, and I'm always quite not surprised anymore. But it's always interesting to note that a lot of people, even very experienced people have very little knowledge about the fitness to practise process. So I sometimes run webinars and we have some very experienced heads of hospitals, psychologists particularly, and they will have what I would argue is a very limited understanding of because they haven't really encountered it that much yet, and then they encounter it and it becomes quite clear to them that, wow, I probably should have known a little bit more. So the fitness to practise process is about protecting someone's fitness to practise, meaning protecting society, society's desire to have people who do their profession, do it competently. So there are various standards of proficiency, the very standards that all registrants need to uphold.

(: 07:08

And if you don't uphold these standards, the idea is essentially in a very broad simplistic sense is that you will be held to account the fitness to practise regime is run by the HCPC, meaning that people can make complaints, various members of the public make complaints, and in terms of a percentage, it's worthwhile understanding who makes these complaints against a psychologist. So the overwhelming majority of complaints are raised by members of the public. So they can be clients, they can be someone who's read an article that you've written, as I say, as a psychologist, they've seen you on the television for more experienced ones they've heard, seen your social media posts, a member of the public that doesn't necessarily have to be directly related to you in the sense that was your patient was your colleague. So the member of the public is the great majority, other colleagues is another.

(: 08:01

I think about 20% of cases are raised by other colleagues or people who work with you, your boss, your workmate. And then there are also anonymous complaints. There are a small amount that happened. So you can have anonymous complaints. The HCPC generally prefers not to receive anonymous complaints, but in certain circumstances that can happen. But I think we're talking about two or 3% obviously where the protection of a person who's involved in the complaint is prima facing more important than identifying them. But essentially the purpose of the fitness to practise investigation, the HCPC needs to be able to tell the person who the complaints' raised against who's raising the complaint. So therefore they can prepare properly on how to respond to that complaint. The final way a complaint is raised is a self-referral. Now this is quite common and people are often quite surprised by that.

(: 08:57

So issues related to health, often people will self-refer. Now that may be health in the broad sense of physical health, that may be health in the sense that there's an addiction issue. So having an understanding that you are unable to practise competently and then raising that concern with the HCPC. So filling out a document and sending it to the H CCP C or calling one of their numbers and explaining that actually I can't do this for reason. A, I have cancer. Reason B, I'm suffering from substance abuse. And being honest and transparent in that process is really helpful from the HCPCS perspective. And that'll also reflect well upon you as you move forward. So once a complaint is raised against you, you then can have a three stage sort of process. So a complaint will be raised and it'll be dealt with by triage, whereby there's people in an office at the HCPC will determine whether there's anything at all within this complaint.

(: 09:56

If there is, then it'll move to the investigation stage. Now the investigation stage is probably where most people have contact with it. So for example, if a complaint's raised against you, you'll receive an email or a letter defining what the complaint is and the fact that there is an investigation underway, that investigation process can last anywhere between two months to three, four years. Ideally the shorter spectrum, but it can take a longer process. Then the decision is made, whether this will go to an ICP, it's an investigation committee panel and they will determine whether that will then go to a final hearing. Now most cases are closed far before it reaches an ICP. If it does reach an ICP an investigation committee panel and they decide there is a case to answer, that will then go to a final hearing panel, which is a longer process.

(: 10:46

And it's similar to a court. So it's a tribunal essentially whereby a thorough examination of the evidence will go forward and it's only generally for misconduct cases that it'll reach that higher level. And if it goes to that higher level, then the various sanctions available are a strike off a warning, these sort of ideas or these sort of sanctions. So it's worth understanding that less than 1% of cases will go to a final hearing. And as a registered psychologist in the uk, the 30,000 members, a 0.06 of psychologists will have a sanction against 'em through the HCPC. So this is a very small number. However, there are also, it's worth understanding that in any given year between 200 and 250 cases are raised against psychologists, which is first or second in terms of the 14 professions, the H CCP C govern. So it is the second most complained against profession.

(: 11:43

And that for me is a very interesting point because it sort of reflects on the nature of the profession itself. Why do psychologists have more complaints raised against them? And that's something we might be able to discuss later. But essentially it's worth understanding that if you're a psychologist, your chance of being struck off are very, very, very small if you're doing the right thing. And just as a percentage, however, there are 235 to 250 cases raised annually against psychologists. So your chance of having some involvement with the FD FTP process is not negligible. Whether you are actually involved as a complainant against a colleague, whether you have a complaint raised against you, whether you're involved in the process as writing a professional report or appearing as a witness. So it's worth understanding how it operates.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 12:25

Yeah, it is. And it sounds like a very multi-layered process, but I guess what you're saying is the first thing you may know about this if this is not a self-disclosure, is you are going about your normal day, you open your emails and then suddenly it feels like the world perhaps implodes a little bit because somebody which might be an anonymous complainant or it might be someone that's named in that email, has raised a fitness to practise concern. Now of course, that's going to feel probably incredibly derailing, especially if you didn't see it coming at all. This is going to have a big emotional impact, isn't it, Nicholas?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 13:02

I mean it's worth noting that outside of imprisonment, your profession really defines who you are. So if you think of sanctions in a criminal sense, and I've worked in criminal law and regulatory law outside of restricting your freedom, restricting your ability to practise your profession is probably the second most powerful thing an organisation can do. So that can be the most destabilising process and particularly in my experience having worked for quite a few years primarily with psychologists, psychologists are often well equipped to deal with these sort of issues through their training. I mean, in theory, you guys should have some sort of knowledge about how we deal with the various processes and various skills, techniques we can use to process anxiety or feeling unable to control a situation. So I think what happens when an FDP process a concerns raised against someone, all your sense of self can be completely rocked.

(: 14:04

And particularly with the length of the process, the nature of the concerns, these things can go for a long time. And all you're going to get is a letter in the mail saying this is a concern raised against you and we'll be in touch. And you know what that can entail eventually in theory that can lead to being struck off. Now, as I've explained, is a very small percentage, but that doesn't mean it's not in your head. So I try and help those. I work with, and I work a lot with the A CP uk, so the Association of Clinical Psychologists uk. And we try and navigate ways of assisting members and obviously there's going to be various bodies that work with the various different types of psychologists. So I suggest that if you are a clinical psychologist, having some contact with these bodies or if you're an educational psychologist or the various different types can be really useful in dealing the process because you can't control it.

(: 14:53

And it's a feeling that I don't have control of this situation. You are waiting for an email to come back. So what I suggest to people to do is to try and be proactive and understand that this fitness to practise process is there in theory to protect the public. And while this may feel like it's attacking you to understand that you are part of a bigger process and to try and disassociate any sort of personal feelings of anger you may have, particularly if you know you've done nothing wrong. And let's be fair, most cases nothing has proven there's been no fault and there's been no misconduct. But the HCP C is there to rigorously check the process. So if you can try and logically think about how do I deal with this and how do I accept the fact that it's a bit out of my control, that's really the objective. But it is incredibly destabilising. There's no two ways about it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 15:45

Yeah, it really is. And thinking about the things that you're going to do in order of that, which you're going to do them, probably you're going to speak to someone who hopefully loves you. You're going to speak to hopefully your supervisor, that's really important. So long as it's not your supervisor who's lodged a complaint, probably going to speak to your indemnity insurer as well. Would that be a good thing to do,

Nicholas Stöckling (: 16:10

Nicholas? Absolutely. I mean, in that order, absolutely. So supervision and the supervision is really, as I'm sure everyone's aware, is integral to the whole profession. And having a visor you have a great working relationship with is really important, and particularly if something like this arises. So the first things first is your supervisor, if you have a body that you're involved in similar to the A CP uk, it is worthwhile potentially contacting them. A lot of these bodies have fitness to practise advice centres. So there'll be someone there to talk to about the case. And this can be done in a very general sense. People have this fear, well, if I'm discussing it with a professional body, is that going to reflect poorly upon me? But I'd argue from my experience, having worked with a big professional body, quite the opposite because a lot of the complaints that are raised against professionals and the issues that they have in terms of dealing with the complaints are common.

(: 17:10

So if you're feeling really vulnerable and frustrated and angry, talking to someone from a representative body can be really useful and obviously your insurer. And in that sense, whether you're going to get the psychological help you need, I'm not sure they're necessarily going to be able to provide that, but they may give you some guidelines, legal advice as well. So if it is a very serious matter straight off the bat, it probably be worthwhile talking to your representative body and whether they think straight away you need to seek legal advice, but trying to remain calm from the outset, remain calm and realise that if you're in a 20 year career, 30 year career as a psychologist, it's not impossible. This is going to come against you. There's going to be some sort of issue raised against you and just accept this part of the process and breathe. That would be my straight off the most advice.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 18:05

Can you still continue to practise when there is an FTP hanging over you or is that very much dependent on what the allegation is?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 18:15

Yes, you can in a simple sense, you can still work at this stage there no, nothing is proven. You can still work unless there's been interim order application. So in very serious cases, usually within a week or two of the HCPC receiving that complaint, they can schedule an interim order application. So what an interim order application is, is a very small hearing whereby the HCPC panel, which consists of three people, a chair, a layman, and a member of the profession. So a psychologist, they'll make a decision whether it's safe for that person to continue practising . Now, this is not a common occurrence, it only happens in severe cases. So if the issues of sexual assault, criminal matters, boundary issues, but of the severe kind, those sort of types of case can have interoral applications. But outside of those, and you'll know very quickly if there's going to be mortar application and a hearing outside of those, you are free to continue practising . Now whether you tell your boss is a matter entirely up to you, there's no legal requirement. It's advisable as a legal professional. It's advisable because generally you guys are on the same team unless they raise the complaint against you, and then they'll be well aware that it's them that's raised it. But generally you are free to practise and what you say to your boss or to your colleagues is entirely up to you.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:38

Yeah, I guess I'm probably thinking about my own perspective too much really, because I no longer work for an employer. I don't know that in all of my time in the NHS that anyone ever said they were under an FTP or had been. Is it more common in employment? Is it more in common in private practise or is it a real mele

Nicholas Stöckling (: 20:02

In terms of what types of people have concerns raised against them? It's across the board. I mean, I work at the moment with people involved working within the NHS. I have clients who have private practise. I don't think there's any way of defining it. I mean, potentially if you're involved, for example, in the NHS one complainant can make multiple complaints against various people. And that can happen particularly in psychology. So that's worth understanding. So in that sense, there may be more complaints made by those working within broader organisations, but generally it's across the board. It's something that people and professionals as psychologists can deal with. And I'd argue, and this is something that I mentioned before, I'd argue that the nature of the profession dictates that vulnerable people can be involved. So as a psychologist, you're going to be working with people who need sometimes severe, serious help.

(: 21:05

Sometimes it's for marital issues. Obviously there's a broad spectrum of psychology, but there are also some people who are unwell. There's no other way to say it in the sense that there's a psychiatric disorder and these types of people, patients, clients, service users, they can be referred to all three. They can have a tendency to respond negatively to certain circumstances. I mean, I think that's pretty clear for you guys as psychologists to understand. So in my experience, particularly during my work with the HCPC with whom I worked for two and a half, three years before I started to work on my own, in my experience, the HCPC receive a lot of complaints from vulnerable complainants.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 21:49

Yeah, I guess you might get someone who's paranoid maybe who's then putting in complaints, which to them feel very justified, but to obviously people who are not paranoid or experiencing any psychosis symptoms, that really feels like that's not at all what's happening or what has happened. So I guess depending on what the complaint is, it might affect how you feel about that.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 22:15

Absolutely. I mean, I wouldn't even paranoia and some form of schizophrenic or psychotic episode that can be people suffering from that particular condition may make complaints, but even way down to a far less serious complaint, meaning someone has attachment issues and a psychologist ends a professional relationship due to ceasing of their practise or they're moving or for various reasons why people change, move location, and they've signposted this perfectly along the whole way. So I'm going to be leaving in six months, nine months exactly as you guys know how to do when practising professionally. And even then the nature of the relationship with the client, and I've had this actually quite a few times, the complaint has been made by a vulnerable patient of a psychologist who is absolutely distraught that this psychologist leaving them, and this leads to a lot of anger, a lot of revisionism.

(: 23:14

So suddenly a lot of the practise, a lot of the work that they did together is viewed through a different prism and they now accuse them of inappropriate touching. That's a more extreme case, but they can definitely say that you left me abandoned and they're angry. Then they can write, and I've seen this with my work with the HCPC and actually with a recent client, they can write very, very structured letters to the H CCP C as part of the complaint process explaining in great detail what this person did wrong. And if you're the HCPC, you're receiving this. This person may not necessarily have a psychiatric disorder, but clearly is motivated because they had this personal relationship with this client, with this psychologist, sorry. And they can write pages of very organised reasons why their psychologist has done something wrong. The H CCP C is just reading prima fa what's in front of them, and they will essentially have to look at these complaints and take them on face value.

(: 24:11

And you may know as a psychologist, you've done absolutely nothing wrong. The HCPC are doing their job. They're saying everyone deserves to have their rights. Maybe everyone deserves to have their complaint heard. So that looks quite clearly like a case that's going to pass the triage stage that's going to go to an investigation, even though there's substantially nothing in it. And the psychologists, particularly if they have experience, will know that what they've done is correct and done their note takings fine, everything's fine, they know this patient, but you can't just respond to the H CCP C saying, this patient has these major mental health issues, or this patient has this attachment issue to do with their childhood. It doesn't work like that. So then the investigation process starts. So as I explained to psychologists quite often, the fact that the psychologists are the second most investigative profession of all HCPC regulated professions, it is to me interesting. So paramedics and psychologists, the two professions which have most complaints raised against. Now that doesn't mean all psychologists are struck off than anyone else. It just means that the nature of profession, I would argue vulnerable people make these complaints and they can make multiple complaints against multiple people. And so it's worth understanding that these sort of people, of these patients, these people involved in your work can also, if the relationship breaks down, can react negatively. So be aware of that is what I'd argue.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:39

Thank you. That's really helped me to get an understanding with that example of how that might crop up for vulnerable patients in order for us to get an understanding of other examples where this might crop up for other referrals. Have you got any other examples you could share, Nick?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 25:54

I think what might be most relevant is to give you some examples of cases that may affect a broader group of people. So everyone knows there's black and white cases, so there's clearly professional boundaries, issues, having a sexual relationship with a client, these sort of things that are clearly going to get you struck off. There's no question about that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:13

That's the sort of thing that you see on every single drama as well. But actually as a psychologist watching those dramas, it makes us scream at the telly like, ah, this never happens. There's always a psychologist who's the murderer or who's unethical. And in the most case, that is not my experience of the profession. So let me just leave that there. But on occasion it does happen and it's a serious concern.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 26:43

Absolutely. I mean, it does happen. I mean, when I was working with the HCPC, I would be prosecuting these cases, but they're rare. They're very rare. They're not the ones that clog up the system. They're definitely not, they're not complicated because it's black and white really, if there's, unless there's a denial of that relationship or whatever it may be. But for me, the issues that people may face in a daily basis relate to two areas. One I'd say is scope of practise. So whether you are actually fully qualified to undertake the particular role that you've undertaking, that is something that crops up. I wouldn't say very regularly, but it is something that I've seen quite often. So what that means, and I'll give you an example to illustrate the point. I had a client recently who acted on a parole board in a juvenile setting.

(: 27:36

So as a juvenile in a juvenile prison. And this particular client was sitting on the body that's decided whether this person was likely to re-offend. Now they wrote a report, the report they thought was fine, there was no complaints about it, that inmate juvenile was released and then committed a crime. Now you work backwards from these steps and that report became under analysis. So essentially the report that was written by a psychologist who said purported to be an expert in this area was now scrutinised and under scrutiny, it came quite clear that they didn't have the appropriate training. Now, certain things, certain areas of psychology are quite niche as you guys all know, but it is quite a broad spectrum of profession. So you can have an area of expertise in one area that overlaps where one starts, one stops is quite blurred. That's the nature of the profession. Someone can have a great deal of experience in one area, which becomes highly relevant to a second one. Now, I would argue having read the report and analysed the report this person wrote, it was excellent. There was no question it was an excellent report, but working backwards, it became clear at this particular field, you needed to have a particular qualification. This particular area of training, seven day course, 10 day course, you needed to have written, I can't remember the exact details, it's a while ago.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:56

You need to be trained in expert witness work. Is that kind of an example?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 29:01

Yeah. So you needed to have a specific document to be able to work within the sphere of juvenile detention centres. It's even that niche. So this specific area,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:13

This isn't about representing someone in court. This is about actually you need that qualification, that experience to be able to do that piece of work and you haven't got it, so you shouldn't be doing it.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 29:22

Absolutely. And so this could have been solved quite easy, and this person was very professional and very good, and that my client was highly competent. There was no issues with that. But because they didn't have this one thing, they were required, that became an HCPC case that went quite far. So what I'd explain to people when I'm giving webinars this quite often is if you are unsure, talk to your supervisor. Look it up. Look to see if I'm going to act on behalf of someone or if I'm going to purport to be a particular expert, particularly say in educational psychology or forensic psychology. And if you do have a good understanding of this, just make sure that your documentation is in line with what you're purporting to do. Now it seems simple in most circumstances. There's not really that set requirement, but in certain areas, be aware that you're not acting outside of your scope of practise.

(: 30:13

So that's one area that I think's worth just being aware of. It's, it's not something you'd like you to encounter every day. And most people know what they know and they stick within their age. But if you just like, Hey, wait a second, I'm not sure I'm quite the right person to do this. And I know in a world where income is really important, just be careful that you don't take that role unless you are fully qualified to take that role. So that'd be sort of the first area that I'd mentioned. Another one would be in terms of reporting, if you feel, for example, like someone you work with is doing something inappropriate, someone within another professional that you have contact with is doing something that they shouldn't be doing. It's a good idea to seek advice from your supervisor immediately. And then if you both agree that this should be reported, reported as soon as possible.

(: 30:58

Now the example I give is a case I had a while back where a woman who runs a clinic and has psychologists working within her clinic, but it's sort of a sublets agreement, but it's under her name. So they're all experts in this particular area of psychology. Her name's on the door, but she has other people working with her. Very common experience in the industry. This particular woman working for her formed a relationship with a client. It did happen, inappropriate relationship. And the only reason she was notified she found out about this was the husband of the client notified her saying, someone who works under your roof is forming a relationship with my wife. Now, what my client did was became aware of this quite quickly. She knew that something was, she had her suspicions for quite a while and then didn't act on them for two, three weeks, then got the email from the husband.

(: 31:51

The husband reported something. Now, this doesn't have to be severe as this, but it can be if there's any form of risk to a client, whether that's a child, whether that's a vulnerable patient, and you are aware of that risk, it's a good idea to seek advice from your supervisor and then escalate it very quickly. So in the case of this person, this client didn't escalate it for about a month, and during that time there was a couple more sessions. Now, this became a real problem for my client because she did not report that and she was endangering the public. So if you are aware of something, have a chat with your supervisor, and if you're still not competent about that advice, go to your body. And if you're still feeling a little bit worried about it, you can even contact the HCPC and you can ask, if not anonymously, you can say, hypothetically, this is what's happened, should I report it? But as soon as you know something's not happening in relation to risk management, make sure you act as soon as possible. That's really what I do. Another advice that I'd give

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:51

That's so interesting. So actually someone else's fitness to practise concern, if you hold on for that too long, could also then become your own fitness to practise concern. You are not protecting the clients and the public.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 33:06

Yeah, I mean that's an extreme example, but it's a good idea. Keeping in mind the fact that HCPC there is there to protect the public, and that's its primary motivating force. Really that's what it's there to do. So in any way, shape or form, you are hindering that or you're aware of that. It makes sense that the HCPC will look into your actions as well, particularly if you're in a more senior position. So this was more of she was the supervisor for want of better expression. So she had some form of leadership role with this woman. But yeah, just be aware of any risk. So the fact that many clients can be highly vulnerable due to the nature of the industry means that any endangerment of these people is heightened. So any sort of risk to someone who's highly vulnerable will be viewed differently by the HCPC to someone who isn't. And that makes sense. So if you're working in a different industry outside of psychology, but it's regulated by the HCPC and the person you're working with is of sound mind and actually can understand the process that's going to be viewed differently to, if you are working with someone who's suffering from severe trauma, has been sexually abused, may have an addiction issue, you need to be more careful what you're doing with them. But that's common sense, I think.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:25

Thank you. Yeah, it is just really helpful to think about this and I think often in psychology, maybe you think, oh, I'll have to worry about that when I get there. But I think it is just wise to be informed and to know what the processes would be and to know that this is not some magical thinking thing that by learning about this, we're not welcoming in those kind of complaints. Yeah, really interesting stuff. Before the HCPC, I think it was the British Psychological Society that did their own regulation. And I remember at the back of the psychologist magazine, there would be results of people's fitness to practise if the kind of what they'd done and it did back in the day when I was an aspiring psychologist, make for quite interesting reading. Do these become public cases once they've been upheld? I guess Nicholas?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 35:19

Yeah. Interesting question. Yes. So essentially it's in the public domain once if an adverse decision has been reached, the final hearing, which is I guess another purpose of the HCPC. So if you're a member of the public and you want to make sure that your psychologist that you are about to entrust your life, your health or your child's health with doesn't have any complaints raised against them that have reached, that have been upheld at final hearing. So yes, there is a website as part of the HCPC where you can click on and you can see all the cases. So people will check that up. Members of the public will check that up, they'll go and have a look at the role to see whether someone has been struck off, because sometimes some people keep on practising . That happens across all professions. A ruling happens against them and then they just pretend it never happened.

(: 36:03

And the H CCP C then have to act accordingly, which is complicated, but the process is actually in most cases a public process. So for example, if it goes to a final hearing or even an interim order application, members of the public can come and sit in on that unless it's decided that it's a closed hearing due to protection of privacy, which in psychological cases can happen quite often due to the nature of the work. But you should be aware that in theory, it is a public hearing. So if you're having an interim order hearing, a member of the press can come in the extreme cases, but if the case is closed before by the investigating team or if it's closed by the investigating committee panel, then that will not be recorded in the public. The HCPC will keep record of that for a certain amount of time. I think it's five years, a five year rule. So they will be aware that there has been a complaint raised against this person that's reached ICP, but there'll be no documented evidence. So therefore, if a member of the public wants to know, Hey, I'm just hiring Dr. Trent, has there been any complaints raised against her? Unless it's been upheld at final hearing, there'll be no record of that. So it's worth knowing that it's only in the extreme cases that reach final hearing that your reputation will be affected.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 37:21

Yeah, that is useful to know. And for anyone that's watching this who is looking for therapy or treatment from a regulated protected title person such as a clinical psychologist, the way you can check the register is to go to the HCPC website or if you Google HCPC, check the register, then you put in the person's surname. I think you can put in which area they're practising in, but even if you don't know that, you can just put in their surname and it will search for anybody who is registered in that name and give you the area that they work in and it will give you their registration number. And that is the evidence that that person is appropriately registered with the professional body. Nicholas, it's been really, really helpful. Could you give us an overview about, I guess where you come in, so what you do and if someone was going to try to reach out to you, what services could you offer?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 38:22

Yeah, thanks very much for that. So as I said, my background is I am a lawyer based with a great deal of experience across many different fields, criminal, regulatory, human rights law. But for the last five to about eight years, I've been working exclusively in regulation law, primarily with HCPC registrants. Now what I try and do is assist people in some of the psychological aspect of it. So I work a fair bit with the A CP UK and we run webinars together, and that is not strictly legal. A lot of that is really helping people navigate the process because stormy waters out there, it really can be quite unsettling. So what I do is I run webinars on how to navigate the process and the various steps you can take. I also run webinars on professional boundaries issues and some actual more legal issues that people face.

(: 39:22

And I mainly really assist psychologists at the moment, but also paramedics and the health, health-based industries in their HCPC process. So if you have a complaint raised against you, I'm happy to assist in the process of responding to the allegation and that can just be a general chat. And then if it does actually reach an ICP level, what one needs to do is they need to respond to each individual allegation and I help people write that. And then if it goes forward to a hearing, I can represent them at a final hearing. But the great majority of the work that I do and people similar to me is assisting people in the initial stages because it doesn't normally go to final hearing and people need to understand the final hearing is not really the likely outcome unless it's a very serious matter. But having someone walk with you through the process and having someone assist you in writing those initial responses to the HCPC, that's really useful and a great deal of experience in that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:27

Would that be something that's funded by the individual themselves or would their indemnity insurer for example, pay your bills?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 40:34

That depends. Generally from my experience and the great majority of clients I have because they have an indemnity insurer, and generally what these organisations do is they will send you to a particular lawyer. And a lot of my clients, in fact, the great majority of my clients have not been happy with the service they've received from that lawyer. It's not necessarily that the legal aspect that they're doing they're assisting with is not good. It's obviously there's a highly competent lawyers. It's understanding psychologically how they're dealing with a process. So my sort of area of expertise is working with people in a psychological sense as well and not just a strictly legal sense. And I think my experience with the HCPC and understanding how traumatic this whole process can be, yeah, it means that I can offer something slightly different on certain circumstances. You can designate and you can choose who you want to assist you in your matter, and that depends on your actual indemnity insurer, so that's something you can make contact with them themselves, but generally it's that's how it works.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:35

Okay. And is it okay if I ask for a ballpark figure about what someone might be expecting to pay per hour or for a piece of work? Because I know when we're trying to think about whether people can afford things, it can be quite helpful.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 41:49

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's really where I've changed people's perceptions on how much these sort of things should cost, because in a strictly monetary sense, getting legal advice from start of a process to the end of the process can be anywhere between five and 10,000 pounds. But what I do is I break it down to what we're going to do now is we're going to just focus on preparing the response to allegations. We're going to have a few chats generally for the initial process and the initial stage. If it does go to an ICP, we're looking around 1500 pounds. I charge about 110 to 120 pounds an hour, which is half the rate of other lawyers. And the reason I do that is the nature of the work is not that unless you're going to an actual hearing, and that's where it becomes the hours start to really accumulate. This is about having friendly dialogue, friendly chats, and giving psychological advice as well as legal advice. I think it sounds a little bit cliche, but walking people through the process. So I think at 110 pounds an hour is generally 110 to 120 depending on the nature of the case.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:55

Thank you. That's really helpful to know. I think often when we're working closely with lawyers and they bill in four minute increments, it can feel like, I have no idea how much is going to all cost.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 43:06

Yeah, I don't do that at all.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 43:07

Okay. That's good to know. Thank you so much for your time. What's the best way for people to reach out to you if they would like to learn more about working with you?

Nicholas Stöckling (: 43:15

Yeah, I think the best way to reach out is via email. That's generally having a personal communication I've found is the best way of going. So my email is nick, NICK stockings, O-C-K-L-I-N-G consulting, CO ns u lt IN g@gmail.com. So nick do stocking.consulting at gmail.com.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 43:39

Amazing. I will make sure that's on screen for anyone watching on YouTube and it will be in the show notes and in the description for YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts as well. Thank you so much for your time and for illuminating this process for us, because of course it can feel very triggering, but hopefully Forearmed is forewarned and people do come out the other side. They do manage to assimilate this into their lives, put it behind them, and go forward without thinking about it every day.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 44:09

Absolutely. It is something that is manageable with the appropriate steps and the appropriate understanding of the process. It's something you could absolutely work through and it's something that having a broader understanding of is very worthwhile in terms of preparing yourself for the worst and every eventuality.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 44:27

Thank you so much for your time, and yes, do stay in touch.

Nicholas Stöckling (: 44:31

Thanks very much, much appreciated.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 44:33

Thank you to Nicholas for his time. It was a really illuminating conversation. I hope that's helped put your mind at ease or maybe given you some useful nuggets to store away for future as well. If you have found this helpful, please do drop a like comment. Please do consider sharing it with your colleagues if you are watching on YouTube, if you're listening on MP three, please do rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Please do rate on Spotify and please wherever you are watching or listening, please do subscribe or follow the show. If you are interested in how to find a qualified and regulated psychologist or therapist, then please do check out the book, which I wrote with my colleague, Dr. Tara Quinn Cillo, which you can find called Talking Heads, your Guide to Finding a qualified therapist in the uk. There is a link to that in the bio. Thank you so much for being part of my world. If you've got ideas for future episodes, I would love to hear them. Please do drop me a comment, drop me a like, please do come and follow me on socials where I am, Dr. Marianne Trent, everywhere.

Jingle Guy (: 45:37

If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this with.