Understanding diabetes, resilience and loss with Mark Turnbull

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

In today's episode of the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast, I am joined by Mark Turnbull, and we are discussing so many things that it might well be easier to tell you the things we are not covering. We are covering diabetes, being a slightly older applicant, being married, being a parent. We're talking motivational interviewing. We are talking so many useful themes. Stay tuned right to the end to get Mark's top tips for how to reduce burnout and how to be your most authentic self.

(: 00:37

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. I am told many times by people that they are worried they might be too old or that they want to get qualified and then have children after training. And I often respond in the same way that there is no race. It's okay, it's all right to have a different start point to somebody else, and that we all have different life experiences, really, that which will affect our trajectory. but today we are talking with an incoming trainee clinical psychologist who has had quite a few adverse life experiences and who yeah, has so much useful stuff that we can learn from. and it was just such a pleasure speaking with him and I hope you'll find it a really helpful listen. we would love to know what you think to this episode, so please do let me know of any feed feedback that you have got.

(: 01:50

I'd also love it if you came and let me know in the free Facebook group, which is the Aspiring Psychologist community with Dr. Marianne Trent. I will look forward to catching up with you on the other side. I hope you find this useful. Hi, I just wanna welcome along our guest for today, mark Turnbull, who is an incoming trainee clinical psychologist. Welcome, mark. Hello. Hi. Thanks for having me. Oh, thanks for reaching out to me. You are another LinkedIn a LinkedIn reacher outer. and we just stopped just chatting in the dms, didn't we? So you'd contacted me to say how much you didn't enjoy the recent podcast episode with Nikita who's recently, she's also an incoming trainee. but also to just highlight that other perspectives are equally as valid and that sometimes it, we just take our own sweet time to get to the same destination. And I really enjoyed our chats, which have been voice, voice notes largely. and yeah, I said how about, how about coming on the podcast and talking to me? And thankfully you were game.

Mark Turnbull (: 02:59

Yes. it's, it's certainly a challenging experience applying for the DClin. And one thing I've taken from it is we can add to some of that extra pressure, and if you've got any questions, I'll be really honest about my experiences and hopefully it can help lots of the other wonderful people thinking about applying next year with, with their journey.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:31

Thank you. That's really, really helpful. And I, I wanna quickly highlight some of the reasons why I was so keen to talk to you, if that's okay. Mm-hmm. we may not have a chance to cover them all because I've gotta go and pick my kids up from school in a bit. but you know, just so that we can really think about some of the issues that you've been you know, that we've been discussing, is that you are age 40 currently. Is that right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You

Mark Turnbull (: 03:58

Are. Yeah. I don't act it, but technically the birth certificate does say 40 now. Yes.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:05

You are a parent as well. Mm-hmm.

Mark Turnbull (: 04:07

, yes. I've got a lovely six and a half year old lovely daughter who's a absolute character. yeah, she's a really big, big driver for me. Yes.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:20

Amazing, amazing best job ever. things we worry about the most, but yeah, you get a lot back. you also have diabetes type one diabetes.

Mark Turnbull (: 04:31

Yes. So me and my wife got married 2015. Looking forward to sort of a first year marriage felt really ill. Beginning of the year I actually did an article for, for the London Economic about Blue Monday. Cuz I was feeling really down in January. I was thinking about different reasons that could be the, the dip from the wedding, not really having anything, you know, like that to think about that. Yeah. It turns out a big reason for feeling quite down was I was becoming really ill with type 1 diabetes. Hadn't realised it yet, and it was only when I started to crave water and sugar like a vampire. And the pants were starting to sort of get really loose around the waist. I thought, I need to get to the doctors here, actually. So that was a big, a big shock and a big fork in the road, so to speak. But one, one I think's been quite helpful actually in, in a way for the DClin process and, you know, where I am today.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:39

Absolutely. We can learn a lot along the way. and are your alarm is going off, are you go, are you gonna be

Mark Turnbull (: 05:47

So that is, that is my

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:48

Diabetes. Are you ok?

Mark Turnbull (: 05:49

That is my diabetes alarm, but I've, I've taken on some sugar. My sugars were bit up and sadly treating the hypos is not like Popeye with the spinach. It does take a little bit of time for it to kick in, but Okay. I assure you I'll be okay.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 06:02

Okay. And this is perhaps an interesting dynamic that might crop up in therapy from time to time as well. How does, how does that affect things?

Mark Turnbull (: 06:11

sometimes in a very helpful way, if you're thinking about engagement with a person. I used to work in diabetes prevention, a a again, trying to learn from difficulties. in my current job, I work in bariatric psychology, so it's people living with obesity. And it happens more often when you'd maybe hope it happens, but my alarm will go off during the session and I've gotta treat a hypo. So I'm sort of doing the session about thinking about food, regular eating, and I'm eating sugary snacks and I'm, this is medicinal, this is medicinal, but I think it can help with engagement and that idea about the person you, you know, you're talking to as a, a real person with a, you know, real range of experiences. I try to, I try to use this as helpful as I can. And when, when I was diagnosed, I was laying in the hospital bed thinking, you know, I applied some motivational interviewing sort of techniques thinking I'm gonna have to dance with this and not wrestle.

(: 07:16

And that was really helpful for coming to terms with accepting and understanding. So even when I got outta hospital the next day, luckily I had that psychology within me to utilise, but I was already on a path of trying to manage it and, and, and get along with it. Obviously you have up and downs with it. but it, it got to a point where when I was doing the DClin application, I didn't want to take the box for disability confident. And my wife told us I was being stupid and I took it to supervision. And without telling me I was being stupid, I think my supervisor was wondering similar. And I took it to Facebook and I, you even might have commented on the Facebook page about it, but a lot of people didn't. Everybody unanimously said, tick that box basically. So I to everybody and thought, Hmm, what's going on there? Am I being too positive and am am I ignoring my own role in managing diabetes? It has helped my health, but I have to help it to help my health. So I've, I've got a helpful relationship with it, I would say on the whole

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:25

The thing is, is it's a major, major life change. It's a major impact and I've only really learned that from my hairdresser has diabetes and has it since she was a child, but I've only really learned it as I've watched her become pregnant and have babies. Yeah. And actually it's a whole different, not it's not a species, but a whole different way of trying to manage your own health, which is different than everybody else's health who isn't diabetic. And actually, yeah. Has really empowered her to think about the benefit of really informed practitioners who are either themselves diabetic or have very, very relevant personal experience to carve out specialist roles. You know, and it might well be that there's psychologists, I think there are psychologists working in diabetes services, but there's you know, within healthcare there is kind of diabetic informed practitioners to be able to work with that condition because it changes everything. You know, before I got to know her well, I thought diabetes was about sugar. and it just isn't, is it, you know, it's so complicated. It's about everything. Yeah, it's about everything. And it's about, you know, I think the monitors have have helped things a lot, but it still, I affects every area of somebody's life.

Mark Turnbull (: 09:49

Yeah. And I, and I think from a psychology point of view, and it's a, it's a core, a core counselling skill and it's a fundamental, but it's that ability for the health professional to really try to hear where somebody is and to be next to them because it's very easy. and I know I've done it in the past and I'm really aware of that sort of roadblock within me, but to make assumptions, make conclusions, you know it seems logical that somebody would want to do something for health, but how often do people just listen to you should do this and go off and do it. People have different levels of activation, motivation, different priorities, different needs, and I think it's really important to just sort of recognise where, where people are. diabetes is a tricky thing because you are managing it every minute of every day.

(: 10:44

And it's one of those unique conditions where once a person leaves a room, they have a huge amount of responsibility potentially where the disease sort of goes. And I think people need to be respected with, with the challenge of, of that and with more of a psychologist or the nurse or whoever it is in the care team can meet the person where they are, the greater that person's got a chance of having a really helpful relationship with the health team, with managing a, a, a daily condition that's, you know, for the rest of the life. I was lucky I had the psychology within me to, to call upon some of those skills. but some people don't have those skills and the support around us. It's, it's better than what it used to be, but it's tricky and it's challenging, but I think with that adversity of that condition plus some of my daughter's adversity, I, I think it's, it's trying to sort of reflect and notice how it impacts on you in a positive way, but also possibly I'm a big fan of Leonard Cohen and one of his lines is, is a crack in everything.

(: 11:59

And that's how the light gets in. And I, and I really keep that in my mind, you know, so even in those sort of dark moments, is there potentially, even if it's in the future or even small, some form of crack of hope and opportunity where eventually if you can just get through the day, just get through the day and just get through the day, eventually I might grow into something. Hence why I've worked in diabetes prevention and did really well delivering those sessions to patients. Hence why I think I've ended up at this time in my life being able to get on the Declan. I've probably answered a second question you've not even asked for, haven't I? ? Sorry, .

Dr Marianne Trent (: 12:41

It's all right. Like, honestly, there's so many areas of, of real, I was gonna sound really morbid, but interest, like you've, you know, you, you've alluded to another difficulty there that your daughter has got health conditions as well.

Mark Turnbull (: 12:58

Yeah, So my daughter was born with a, just through sheer bad luck. Everything about genetic conditions was a lot of luck and people being healthy, isn't it? As well as what people do when they're older. you need luck bit like running a car, things can happen. but yeah, she, she was born with a complex condition, a number of different issues, problems, dozens of operations. She had our last one two years today, I was telling you about it earlier, which was essentially a gastric . So on a four year old in my interview for bariatric psychology coming up to an nearly two years ago, I said about my daughter, had had a gastric bypass, but I didn't tell them the context why. And it was only when I came off the phone, I went, how, what if did that land ? How did his daughter have a gastric bypass?

(: 13:55

This is for people living with obesity. So I sent an email when I got offered the job going can I just explain what I meant by that? What I was trying to say was, I've, I've got some experience from a personal point of view, but blah, blah, blah. During interview, it didn't, I didn't actually give the context, but I think, you know, I'm not gonna lie, it was absolutely brutal, particularly the first year. And for me, again, using psychology at that point, there's, there's no manual that says how to get through those times. And I sort of remember thinking, I'll get through each day and if it works for one day, I'll try it the next day. And if it doesn't, I'll try something else. And I know people talk about being mindful, being in the moment. There's times where, you know what you want to be away from that actually.

(: 14:45

And distraction could be the key thing. You need to, to be a bit more present the next day. And I think it's one of those things where if you get through the day, that's a massive success. But people did say to us things would get better at around four or five years. I mean, it took a gastric bypass for my daughter to start improving. But you know, what it sort of did around the age of five and through going to work and that adversity, I mean, there's times where I was like living in the hospital, like literally with my work stuff, clothes, leaving the ward by, I'm off to work, say bye to the nurses coming back afterwards. And I look back now and I think, how and why did I do that? But in terms of training, in terms of being yeah, resilient for, for me personally, it was really helpful cuz it was always gonna be a long haul.

(: 15:44

This, it wasn't gonna be a quick fix or anything like that, but it gave me a platform to, to grow in my career. So from the diabetes prevention worker I did, I ended up working in a role where I was a team leader. I was training social workers on MI and CBT, I was doing my case work with patients and had the biggest caseload and working with the most amount of gps. So in a, in a way I sort of felt quite fit , you know, at, at work. And I'd written myself off. I was again, I was telling you about, you know, my, my sort of roadblock of ageism and I was writing myself off in terms of DClin and felt the ship had sailed and I'd squandered me best chance of getting on in my twenties by just enjoying me twenties too much. And somebody said to me like, Mark, look at what you are doing at work every single week. And I just stood back and went, this is like working like a clinical psychologist. So I thought, I'm gonna have another go. I'm gonna apply. And, you know, I'm really, really grateful I did.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:56

Yeah, absolutely. And I think all of your future clients will be really grateful as well, and your cohort, they're gonna be delighted to, to get, to be part of your life and to benefit from your rich experience. and there's further adversity to come in case everybody thinks, oh, that's surely enough. That's enough. yeah, really sad to say that both of your, both of your parents died when you were a child.

Mark Turnbull (: 17:23

Yeah. Yeah. I, I hope people have tissues really, I don't know. But no, I, I don't, I don't, I don't cry about it. And I've, you know, I've done my crying many, many years ago. it's something that has been so long ago now that it does have an impact, but not like a, not like an acute problem these days. And most of my life I've lived without my parents. So it, it is something that I've gradually adjusted to. I I, I found it hard when I was a child, obviously in, in different ways. Once, you know, my mom died removed school, I was very quiet all of a sudden from being really, you know, chatty in this new, you know, in a new school. I was very quiet and I did my work and I was doing my work within a few minutes.

(: 18:11

And I used work to distract myself from being in that environment after my mama had died. But I, I sort of realised that was fairly intelligent as well. So that became an unhelpful coping strategy in a way, because I was also competitive. So I wanted to be the quickest and the best at everything. And I still have at Indy, but it's, it's quieted down a little bit of that competitive streak. But, oh, I went to high school, a 2000 pupil school just after my dad died. And that was really challenging because I'd moved back to Newcastle from the countryside, Northumberland, where my nana lived, and all of a sudden I'm in the town again. And the people are slightly different compared to, you know, Northumberland, you know, a lot more, you know, a lot more direct, a lot more sort of confident and, you know, brush, I guess, at least on the surface.

(: 19:19

And going to a 2000 pupil school after your dad died it was really, really difficult. Really tough. And I remember as a unhelpful behavioural strategy, fighting a lot , you know, cuz I was so frightened that I thought if I'd lash out, almost like it's gonna keep me safe, but it didn't, it just got me more attention. So it was a really maladaptive thing with hindsight. but again, it was trying to find like an identity for me. And, and I think that's probably why up until I became a 30 year old person living with my now wife, I didn't have that identity. I didn't have that stability in my life. I I probably didn't get it till me, me and my wife moved in when I was 30. Which at

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:07

Which point your pancreas decided to back.

Mark Turnbull (: 20:09

Yeah, exactly. Just, just to, just to give us another curve ball. But yeah, I could be a chave, I could be a swat, I could be a sporty person, I could be a class clown. I was just so dysregulated. And although I did well at A Levels, well, sorry, I didn't do well at A Levels, I actually failed my psychology a level cuz I had further adversity around that time. But the university took me on, I got a two one, I did a masters, I struggled with that, but I was so dysregulated from my twenties and, you know, if I did have a tip for people, you know, based on my own experience, and I imagine this might be an a minority thing, but it's just check in on where your head and emotion is at that point. Because although in some ways I felt I was ready for Declan and good enough with hindsight, my emotional intelligence, my stability, I, I I just wasn't anywhere near it. hence why I'm a little bit old. I get onto DClin, I think

Dr Marianne Trent (: 21:10

We get there when we're ready, you know? Absolutely. I believe that. Yeah, I, I agree. but with my psychology head on, I'm thinking, gosh, with the greatest deal of respect you could be one of my clients, you know? absolutely. There's, there's enough experiences here that I'm not that many other people. I'm not

Mark Turnbull (: 21:29

I'm not paying you!

Dr Marianne Trent (: 21:30

No, it's fine. You know, many people would have have really struggled with this along the way and would've faulted and it would be understandable given these nature of cumulative things that, that life have got tricky. But also with my psychologist head on, I think, gosh, you must have some really, you don't need to disclose them, but you must have some really strong protective factors. Obviously your intelligence is one of them, but there's, you know, we're always looking at, well, why isn't this a problem? Why isn't this as well as why is this, why now? But, you know, protective factors can do a great deal.

Mark Turnbull (: 22:06

Yeah, I've, I've got a, I guess I've got a competitive pride like I mentioned earlier, and like a determination to, I I guess when you've had quite a lot of adversity. One thing I may happen eventually is you become familiar with it and you become aware that some of our adversity might sort of gradually chip away to some degree through time. But also that there might be things that we can do to, to sort of heal from us a adversity. So it, it might still be there and it might still be with you, but it could be further away, it might not come out as often potentially, or the trigger situations might be a bit more few and far between. but I mean my protect the fact that now is obviously, you know, my, my family. but one, one thing I didn't say about my dad was he was a competitive person and he had the opportunity to go to university to be a doctor like a medical doctor.

(: 23:08

I didn't wanna leave Newcastle. And I mean, in my wedding speech I did, I did mention that and I did say I hope to, you know, follow in his footsteps. So even though he passed away coming up 30 years, it's still a driver in me. but it's not just to make him proud. , I, I said this on Father's Day when I was at the crematorium, but it's, it's also to like, in a jokingly way, but get one up on him . So he was competitive. Could have been a doctor? And I'd be, I'd be lying if I said like you know, but you know, deep down he's gonna be proud. Deep down he will be proud that I've done it. But it, it is a little bit of competition again, one up upon him cos he was such a talented man.

(: 23:53

He, he, he really was. but it has, it has spurred me on and I know we've all got different reasons for wanting to get on the DClin. most of mine are obviously about psychology and what, what I want to do to, you know, assist people in, in difficulties and in distress. But I, I think being aware of your personal drivers is really important as, as one of your books, you know, reports we 've all got them, and again, Marianne, I know in your book you talk about being in a lecture theatre, hearing about clinical psychology and somebody saying basically, oh, don't even bother, essentially. Yep, bingo. I remember the same conversation. You know, same lecturer saying something very similar and me going, I'll show you. You know, it's that competitiveness I guess possibly telling me not to do something. I'll show you .

Dr Marianne Trent (: 24:47

Mm-hmm. I'll get there then I'll like tell everyone about how you told me not to do it . Yeah. But I think you also touch really nicely on, on a grief issue there, which is how we can actually keep the presence of someone we loved with us in the present and have it be about continuing that relationship that never got a chance to, to reach its natural conclusion in longer life. and it's something I do with my dad as well, you know, I think about what would he say about that? What would he do about that? Or, you know, would I tease him about that? Yes, I would. And it's really nice that you can still have that playful element even though your dad's not here.

Mark Turnbull (: 25:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.I agree. It's something nobody ever taught me to do. and if that's a helpful strategy that you share with some of your clients going through grief, that's something that when I was like 11 or 12 I, I, I just sort of did and it helped me with sort of getting through different periods. I used to if I was struggling with motivation or something, I used to sort of say like, do it for me dad, you'll do it for dad. And that was something I would like, sort of call upon to, to spur me on as a coping strategy. and yeah, it, it is something I'd sort of still in me, but it doesn't come out of these days like, like I needed to when I was a teenager. I think probably in my twenties actually, I forgot about that and didn't maybe call upon it enough. hence why I had such a good time at university and not enough studying and, you know yeah, lack of emotional intelligence let's say. But you, you're right. You, get there when you're ready, don't you? And there's a lot of reasons behind readiness,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:38

We do all do slightly sillier things, you know, before we've got our full frontal lobes as well. So you might be being slightly harsh on yourself, you know, we're supposed to be like playful adolescent monkeys, you know, going off to go and wrestle and have fun with our colleagues and friends and, you know, coming into scrapes and then coming back into the fold in the evening. And it's maybe, you know, I hope that you had a fold that felt safe and loving, but your fold will have looked a little bit different than, than the average 2.4 family would've done.

Mark Turnbull (: 27:15

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, that's definitely, that's definitely the case. I mean, I, I am aware like during those times I still got a two one and I still managed to do a masters. So I used my dad's inheritance to self fund the masters. I expected to do it within a year. I didn't want to go to work when I finished my degree. Just do a few essays, do an assignment that easy first paper back this is a poor piece of work, 35%, you know, oh, big shock. Big shock. This is gonna be a lot, lot bigger, a lot more challenging. But that just shows where my head was, I was either too high or too low. And that's what I mean about checking in the sort of head space and readiness and, and just, just sort of making sure that, you know, the situation around you feels stable enough, you know, like we might do with patients on the bariatric pathway, is this the right time? Is this gonna help you more than it's potentially gonna hinder? And yeah, yeah, just, just I, I guess know yourself as well as possible cos we've spent so much time thinking about the, the course, what the panel might be like, what to put on the form. But I know you talk about, you know, sort of self-compassion, you talk about, you know, kindness and patience quite often, but it's, it's a neglected area potentially to somebody's preparation for this, for this career. but

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:49

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. you've mentioned motivational interviewing quite a few times and I know that there might be some people listening to this who are thinking, oh, I should know what that is. Or maybe even earlier in their career and thinking I've not, I've not heard of that. Could you save people a Google and explore, explain briefly what motivational interviewing is and why it's so good.

Mark Turnbull (: 29:13

Yeah, so motivational interviewing is a style of having a conversation with a person and it's not about, I'll think about it like this. So if you're trying to help your child and into the water, I'm, I'm totally nicking off Stephen Rollnick here, but you know, instead of like trying to push them in or to pull them in to change to doing something, you, you are next of a person and you're using some conversational skills that essentially are from sort of Rogers in a person-centered way of working with someone. to really try to ask open questions, find out what matters to them, what's really important to them. you know, so if you think about blood sugar, it might not be important for them at that moment to manage your blood sugar. It might be important to do something else, but if you can have a conversation about what something else looks like, you might be able to then trickle down, no pun intended, to something that could help them with thinking about their diabetes differently.

(: 30:23

Seeing how those two things fit together. So it's, it's really, it's really a style of conversation I alluded to earlier. It looks more like a dance with a patient. So I know when I'm talking to people, if it feels like it's getting tense, if it feels like it's getting difficult and the answers are becoming short, I'll just sort of check in on that and just sort of go back to how it's going. But it's, it's something you could use with other approaches. So you can use it with like act, you can use it with C F T, you can use it with C B T. It's not something you, you do on its own in my opinion. It compliments some of the other work. but finding out what really matters to the person, what really matters to the person.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 31:06

Yeah. And then you can use that to be the difference that makes a difference.

Mark Turnbull (: 31:10

Yeah, yeah, definitely. There's lot, lots of resources out there about motivational interviewing.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 31:16

Lovely. Thank you for filling in that gap cause that's not something we've spoken about in the podcast so far. So what are you hoping to gain from training at risk of making you answer your DClinPsy form all over again? What are you hoping to gain from training or what are you looking forward to about these next three years?

Mark Turnbull (: 31:34

So personally, it, it, it's felt like a recovery for me given the potential I had and the decisions I might have made that took me away from that. And then some of the adversity that, you know, landed into our lives. So it feels like, you know, a symbol of recovery from that. And I'm, I couldn't have done that without psychology cuz psychology over the last few years has helped me with that growth and that adversity and managing some of those difficulties. So for me, I'm looking forward to learning more about psychology, becoming a far, you know, more helpful, well-rounded practitioner and the university I'm going to really encourages you to become the practitioner you want to become. Which is wonderful for me cuz I feel quite, quite versatile and curious about different approaches. But I also hope that when it comes to retirement, how old will I be?

(: 32:34

65, 70? Who knows? I can look back on, you know, the next, you know, the next 30, 30 years and sort of feel like I've made a contribution to psychology. So I don't just mean with the services I work into and the patients I meet, I'm really passionate and I, I know this could be a cliche, but the systems, you know, so to, to use Dr. Kava Jones's analogy of the dust factory, producing loads of dust, giving people masks to wear, treating them for the condition, you know, the chest problems, but actually tackling the factory itself. That's sort of where I hope my work takes me. Done some work with people who are struggling with some of the difficulties but doing something that really informs the societal cultural community change. And if I train of our people along the way of supervised people along the way who look back and say, Mark's been a helpful influence, I'll, I'll, I'll take that at 70.

(: 33:41

If I get there, I'll take that, I'll be quite happy with that. But I'm really excited because, you know, 20 years ago when me and you in those lecture theatres Yeah. About clinical psychology and that sort of spark happened 20 years later, you know, four decades, 99 I started my my year levels. I'm just gonna remember to be grounded, not too high or low and to appreciate being on that course. There's gonna be challenges, there's gonna be bumps I'm gonna ask for help, I'm gonna put my hand up and I'm gonna do my best and really relish the opportunity. And I'm looking forward to the cohort itself. They seem really lovely for our social media conversations. I might be one of the older people who knows, but I'm gonna be enthusiastic and fun and hopefully people will not realise I'm 40 when this start unless we're watch this obviously cos this gives it away .

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:44

But I think there's so much, I don't know, I felt like 41 was a bit of dodgy year for me for a variety of reasons. But 40, I was just, just loved life. Like, I felt really vibrant. My children were a little bit older. I felt like I'd come out of the kind of grief dip that I'd been in and yeah, you know, I just felt, I felt really good. I was the healthiest probably I've ever been. Like yeah, I felt like 40, it felt like a big deal, but actually when I got there I was so proud to be 40 and yeah, you know, to be the product of my own experiences and all of the people that had shaped me along the way. And as I say that I'm mindful of sometimes people say, is there like a limit to the number of relevant experience roles you can put in on the DClinPsy form having read yours? I'm gonna say no. Yeah. Like yours went on for pages and pages and pages and pages and pages. But you know, all of those experiences we have with us and we take with our client sessions and with our parenting, you know, and I felt so proud to be 40 and I'm now 42, I'm recently turned 42. But to have all those experiences with me and to have that within the room with clients,

Mark Turnbull (: 36:02

Yeah, it's, it's trying to say it in a helpful way as a strength and, and and to have that sort of, you know, brush of compassion to, you know, paint it in a helpful way. But it's interesting you mentioned about experience and I would always go back to, and I know it says this in the guidance, but a quality of experience. So one benefit of, of my career path is I've had a couple of jobs where I am working with people every single day Monday through Friday. And I was able to do that for a period of a couple of years in, in one job. And that for me was so helpful early on in my career. So I would be supportive of people thinking about working in supportive house and for a reason cause just my experience. Yeah, it was really helpful to see the wider determinants of health at play.

(: 36:55

You know, the, you you get to know people and you find out about their sort of life experience and adversities and you are able to sort of start mapping it out. And I didn't know I was formulating at that point, but that's what I was doing as I was taking in people's narratives and stories. but I think it gives you a really rich experience and it's that lived experience that can, can really inform as much. I don't wanna be too controversial and say more than a textbook or more of an lecture, but in terms of the colourful way of learning, watching somebody and getting to know somebody in front of your eyes and having that honour to, to be in their lives is just so powerful and they've really helped me become the person-centered person that I am, you know, working next to the person as, as an equal. and it's, I I've loved the last few years seen the NHS sort of catch up on that sort of spirit. It's a long time coming, but it's better live than never, I guess. yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 38:03

I would definitely echo that. I think so I think I said in the Clin psych book, I was a home carer for probably about a year or so. I learned so much about dignity and respect and compassion and just being a really good human first as an intervention. you know, yeah,

Mark Turnbull (: 38:26

Yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 38:27

That I use, I use don't have to

Mark Turnbull (: 38:28

Psychology, you don't have to do psychology necessarily. If, if you just meet them in a very equal way and you listen and you're just there, that could be powerful.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 38:40

I think for me it's the treating people as important. So at the time I was working with colleagues who would be very much trying to rush the jobs to get them done as quick as they could so they could get out the door and still claim their full wage and get home. and sometimes I would turn up to what was supposed to be double handed jobs and the client was already in bed because they'd done it themselves. And that's like I was to time because if there was extra time, if it was just to go in and, you know, make them a cup of tea and then check the doors locked call really for 15 minutes, I would sit and massage their legs with cream because they looked a bit dry and they'd be like, oh, are you sure you don't need to dash off?

(: 39:24

And I was like, no, I've got, I've got another seven minutes. We can, we can do whatever. And sometimes they'd say, will you just watch Coronation Streak with me? And I was like, yes, of course I will because that's part of being human and I could almost see them like, really puzzled, why, why are you, why are you wanting to do this? But it's because A) you matter to me, but B) I don't wanna be in the, in the nature of fraud. You know, if I've said I'm gonna be here for 15 minutes, I'm damn well I gonna be here and I'm gonna do your washing up and I'm gonna change your bedsheets and I'm not just gonna make you that cup of tea because you matter. And I think that's what we get from relevant experience roles.

Mark Turnbull (: 40:08

Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And, and, and you could have chose not to, but for you, your values, your character you were very self-aware about how I would land, how I would feel and yeah, you, you know, you, you give a damn essentially. yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:27

That said, I've never lost more sleep than when it was my job to lock people's doors, then I'd be like, right, did I , did I put the key back in the key safe? Did I, did I like, it's a lot of responsibility, isn't it, ?

Mark Turnbull (: 40:44

Yeah, I can imagine. Imagine. Mm

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:48

Right. This has taken an unexpected term, but it all feels so deep and so rich and so I hope what feels useful, inspiring, and engaging for people. Yeah. you've given us lots and lots of really great take home nuggets about reducing burnout on the way to you know, doctorate courses. have you got any other kind of parting words of wisdom?

Mark Turnbull (: 41:13

Yes, I think it's important. and I know you talk about patience and compassion being authentic, you know, be yourself on the form. we're not looking to catch you out. You know, I, I couldn't say I do this and do that and do that when I've got a daughter I with disabilities where what I do is a lot of extra work and support around her. so I think be authentic, you know, on, on that, on that part of the form. I think regardless of the outcome, and I accept this is really, really challenging, but the fact that you are doing the application form, just take a bit of moment every now and again to recognise that you know, you are doing that form. And, and what I say is about you as a person, as a practitioner and to, to, to really yeah, just, just appreciate the enormity of it, I guess.

(: 42:10

And I think if you are feeling distress and difficulty while you're going through the form, my experience from talking to people is that the process doesn't have add to a lot of that. So it, it's nothing in you if, if so many people are feeling that I'd say something about the system, the process itself. So I think just, you know, being really kind, take your time with it take breaks, don't do too much work on it. Get four people maybe maximum to have a look at it. People let you trust people, let you know be aware of too much social media but also too little. It can be useful, it can be helpful, but get the amount of it right. pat yourself on the back and give you a cuddle. Like, before I applied I would've loved to meet people who got on first time. And actually I'd love to have conversations with people who got on three or four times. I'd love to hear about them as a personality. Yeah. Just honestly just yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 43:19

And can avoid just, yeah, just empower people to do them. Do what's authentic to them. I'm really sorry, but we are gonna have to go cuz otherwise no problem. My kids are gonna be put into wrap around childcare, but it's been the biggest privilege to speak to you and I feel like I can invite you back on for many, many future episodes. But wishing you the loveliest time on training, there will be hard days. You know, you may even fail another assignment and that's okay. It's, it's all part of the process and many of us do. I definitely failed one. So just be kind to yourself, support yourself, look after yourself. Really enjoy this summer as well. You know, I think it's a very special summer indeed where you are about to start your training, enjoy your family life, enjoy not having any academic work to submit.

Mark Turnbull (: 44:04

Definitely. I'm gonna take a break, give me a bit of a rest before it all starts to kick off again. But best wishes to everybody listening and thinking about applying for next year. Really, really good luck. Take care and thanks. Very much appreciate it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 44:19

Thank You so much for your time.

Mark Turnbull (: 44:21

Thank you.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 44:22

Well I am now back from the school run and I've also been to the supermarket to get some mushrooms and some bread, but it is the same day that I spoke to Mark and it was such a pleasure to speak to him. I'm sorry we didn't have a chance to properly finish the episode as mindfully as I might have enjoyed, but I did send him some voice notes with quite profuse thank yous. So yeah, I hope you found that really interesting. If you have your own unique stories to tell that you think people in this audience of aspiring psychologists might well gain or learn something from then, do please get in contact with me and let's see if we can sort out getting you on the podcast. If you would welcome some more guided help and support to support your career aspirations, then do check out the Aspiring Psychologist membership.

(: 45:12

There's more information about that in the show notes, or you can get it by clicking on any of the links in my social media bios. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. Thank you so much for being part of my world. We will have some compassionate q and as coming up to support the next application season. I will find some space in my diary and communicate those dates to you as soon as I can. Be kind to yourselves and I'll look forward to catching up with you for the next episode, which is available for you from 6:00 AM on Monday. Take care

Jingle Guy (: 45:55

If with this.