The Psychology of Attachment, Dating & Relational Patterns

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

So many people think their relationship problems started with dating, but often the patterns were there long before that. The way you handle conflict, the people you feel drawn to, the way you shut down, overthink, over give or struggle to ask for your needs to be met. A lot of it began in relationships that taught you what felt safe and what didn't. In this episode, fellow clinical psychologist, Dr. Kate Sherit and I explore relational patterns, burnout, dating, attachment, self-esteem, and why we keep repeating dynamics that no longer serve us. Hi, welcome along to Psychology Actually. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist and today I'm joined by Dr. Kate Sherratt, who is also a clinical psychologist. Hi, Kate.

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 00:51

Hello. Great to be here. Thanks.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:54

Thanks for being here. Today we're going to be thinking about relational patterns, how they show up for us, maybe why they show up, and a couple of different examples of where they might show up. So before we go any further then, could you guide us through what is a relational pattern, Kate?

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 01:14

Sure. So a relational pattern is a pattern of thinking, emotions, and behaviour that develops often quite early in our relationships with important people like our parents or other early caregivers. Often it has a function to keep us safe and connected to them. And these patterns, I think the important thing to say is these patterns make huge amounts of sense in the context where they develop. But the problem is when people come to see me in adult life confused about why they're doing something that doesn't make sense to them or why they continually getting into the same situations, patterns that made sense originally can trip us up in everyday life when they jump contexts.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:58

Yeah. And I think clinically, sometimes we might see that when someone is struggling with something, maybe they isolate themselves, take themselves to a room to be by themselves and then actually think, "Oh, this might be old. I could probably speak to my partner or my children or a friend about the way I'm feeling. Maybe I don't need to do this. " Or maybe someone recognises with them, you seem to always go to our room or go to your room when you are sad. And I wonder what that's about. So maybe they haven't noticed that themselves. Are there any other examples that might help people to realise that some of their patterns might be older in style and maybe not serving them in the way they might hope they are still? Does that make sense, Kate?

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 02:46

Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking of someone I was speaking to this week about workplace burnout and there are so many diverse things under the hood when you look at burnout. But in this particular instance, we were talking about something that seems quite mundane. So there's overwork, there's being swamped at work and sort of being given loads of demands from people in meetings. But actually for her, the flavour of the problem is that she was feeling very deflated, demoralised, and resentful and like she wasn't being respected. And actually it didn't add up from the details of the situation. And I think that's one key little hair trigger of, is this an old pattern? If the strength of feeling you've got in a situation doesn't quite add up, chances are there's another couple of layers underneath. And actually I said to her, "I'm going to be a bit psychologisty here just to ask you if I name this pattern in this way.

(: 03:43

So feeling like you can't speak up, feeling like your view isn't going to be heard and you'll be disrespected anyway, does that remind you of any time in your previous life?" And she kind of sat there and went, "Yeah, yes it does." And then we had a very fruitful conversation where we're able to link it to some earlier experiences with parents that made huge amounts of sense. And again, we're not talking these experiences don't have to be abusive, vivid, kind of really, really obvious. Very well-intentioned parents with strong characters can just end up kind of giving you an M25 highway to a particular sort of expectation and response that you develop that's fine in that relationship with them, but is absolutely a route to burnout at work. So yeah, does that answer your question?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:39

It really does. It's a lovely example. And what you've given us a really beautiful illustration of is starting to piece together a formulation for this person. So why something emerged, what's keeping it maintained and trying to make sense of that. And it can just be this really illuminating a light bulb moment that helps people realise the very good and important reasons why this is likely still around for them, but just allows them to be curious about whether this is something I need to hold onto, in which case that's a kind of functional way of behaving or whether this might be old and whether this still fits. So I think what you're talking about is trying to formulate people so that they've got a user manual to their own brain. Is that right, Kate? A hundred

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 05:30

Percent. I absolutely love formulation. I think all of us sort of like particular elements of our craft and for me, formulation is the, it's the one. And yes, I think what you say about context is important because once you're aware, you've got choices and actually in the original context, it still makes sense. I remember going to the Tavistock for training and attachment and it was so interesting. They were talking about child protection cases and once a child reaches a certain age where they've got the ability to sort of executive function and reason between different scenarios, they were talking about how you might be able to help a child keep safe in one context by encouraging some protective behaviours that they developed, but actually you could discuss with them that that's not okay and that's not what we want for you and with other adults and in other contexts, you can behave differently.

(: 06:24

So you could see that even in a really, really challenging context at that age, but most of us don't have that external perspective that young.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 06:34

Yeah, but that kind of made me think that even with parents who are still together and parents who aren't still together, a child will quickly learn what is okay with one parent and what is not okay with another and individual differences, but also when it comes to maybe less than ideal parenting, then a child will have those benchmarks set. And can that play out in that child's friendship groups, in their adult friendships as they grow up? Can it play out in their intimate relationships as they age?

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 07:09

Oh, 100%. A different example of someone that originally came to me with burnout is really standing out to me because actually when we were discussing his lifestyle and his friendships and relationships, what was so striking is that the kind of protective pattern there was something I've kind of shorthanded as a protector pattern, which is where actually it's safer for you to be self-reliant, independent and strong and not rely on other people. But actually that protective pattern made sense for him in his background, but meant that the burnout he was experiencing was because there was absolutely no social network around him at all and he was really, really wanting a relationship and particularly at work in a senior position feeling very isolated. So yeah, absolutely patterns that sort of develop in relationships when you're a child can sort of play out in some of the contexts that you choose and accept.

(: 08:06

So like a workplace context, which actually might also make it difficult for you to have a social life, you might accept that more readily if you've got this protector pattern and then you might respond differently in terms of reaching out to people or if people reach out to you as well. So it can become quite reciprocal as you get older, if you don't notice and recognise your pattern, you can end up sort of further down a road where it becomes the natural way to operate.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:30

Yeah. And I'm kind of thinking about people I've got to know across the years and when you are in a work situation, especially if you're in a role where you're being clinically supervised, that can be kind of quite an intensive at times emotionally intimate relationship, can't it? Which if someone's had a parenting experience of only ever getting attention from someone when they're in trouble or they've done something wrong and otherwise being left alone, then that kind of sense of being seen and having space held for you, well, that can be pretty discompobulating, can't sit, Kate. Absolutely,

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 09:14

Yes. I mean, my prior background before private practise was working for a number of years in CBT and clinical psychology training and we saw, yes, the supervisory relationship in training, but I think also it can be in general, can bring up some of those kind of dynamics that you have with parents and caregivers and absolutely some responses to supervision can be to sort of go, "Why are you caring about me and asking these questions? Sort of leave me alone." And that's where a behaviour that can look the same on the outside, like not volunteering too much in supervision can have lots of different underlying reasons, one of which might be the protector pattern sort of, "Oh, don't care about me, just let's keep this transactional." Or it could be a performer pattern where actually you are really worried about being found out, you need to be seen as performing highly, you don't want to make any mistakes, you need to have your competence recognised and so you might be withholding information or sort of feeling got out for a different reason, "Are you trying to criticise me or tell me that I'm not good enough?"

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:19

Yeah, because criticism can be a really big one, can't it? Having things said to you about shaping, improving, reflecting, especially if you've kind of had issues of being criticised before or being humiliated or shamed, then that can make it feel like a really fragile experience to go through. But sometimes hearing good things about yourself can be really discombobulating for people as well. I'm aware I've used the word discombobulating twice, but I'm going to roll with it. So I did an episode on receiving feedback and it was all about receiving negative feedback and that being tricky. But actually sometimes hearing good things about yourself can move you to tears or can make you very defensive, can't it?

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 11:10

Or it just simply doesn't go in. I think that's something I've really-

Dr Marianne Trent (: 11:14

While

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 11:15

You're Teflon. Yeah. Particularly with performer people, it can be sort of like, "Well, that's the baseline, that's the benchmark, so I should be getting that feedback. Cool, move on. " And that means that there's this kind of hole sitting there for self-esteem where all those lovely nuggets of good feedback just aren't landing and kind of creating a sense of confidence that feels really grounded, which can be really devastating quietly in its own way.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 11:42

It really can. And I guess I'll share a little bit about how I use feedback. So we can't always be extrinsically, externally motivated. We must be able to hopefully pull on threads that can self-soothe ourselves. But what I will do when I hear something or when I achieve something is I will almost pop it under my metaphorical belt and I'll think, right, okay, I'm going to mindfully file that away. I'm going to store that for a trickier day. And the first thing I ever did that with was my GCSE results. So that felt like, okay, here's a tangible thing that when I'm feeling like I'm struggling, I'm just going to pop that there and I'll be like, okay, all right. So you can't be that awful because you did get X, Y, and Z. But people can begin to build up this bit of a toolkit using their internal, their external motivators, can't they, Kate?

(: 12:35

Have you got any strategies that might be really helpful for people as well, Kate?

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 12:40

Absolutely. It was something I actually did when I was having a difficult time myself, but it was something I learned. There's like this geeky kind of small sub treatment for low self-esteem with a good evidence base called positive memory retraining. And it essentially involves identifying what the negative self-image is. And then it's written beautifully by these Dutch researchers and it's kind of like, "Well, is that very fair? And is it sort of proper for you to have this belief of yourself without really investigating whether you are indeed boring or not? " And the protocol entertains the idea that you could be boring, but actually you might have other redeeming qualities that sort of offset the boringness. So it kind of doesn't matter, which I thought was lovely. But in essence, it gets you to identify what a sort of realistically grounded positive belief about yourself might be and then kind of pour in some evidence and there's imagery work so you identify the word like I am capable and then you have different memories that really strongly resonate with you about being capable.

(: 13:53

You pair it with music and possibly even a power pose and you rehearse these memories and this phrase until you actually kind of beef yourself up. And at one point I actually, a strategy they suggest is going through evidence, anything from your school reports to leaving cards that people have sent you, birthday cards, whatever, and amassing this evidence. And it's a really, really lovely exercise to do. I even messaged a couple of friends and just got the most beautiful comments back from people. And when you see all this kind of massive evidence together, you're like, "Wow, okay. Yeah, that negative belief isn't the whole story." So it's different from a lot of problem focused approaches that we tend to work with in clinical psychology, but it's actually a really positive, rather lovely experience to do. So it's definitely a toolkit that I kind of use little sprinkles of in my work.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:49

That sounds so lovely. And I use a sort of hybrid of both of our approaches that on my phone, so I've got an iPhone. On my phone, I will create a phone album called Smile File and when someone sends me something or I see a review or something happens or my kids do something, I think I'll add that to the smile file. And then when I need a little bit of a boost, I go back to that. But I love the idea. Sometimes giving accents to things can be really helpful. So when I used to do sessions in the NHS for people, sometimes we would use different voices to kind of represent different characters because it really helps bring them to life. My children sometimes like me to just speaking in an Australian accent because I'm much more fun mom when I'm Australian. But yeah, we used to kind of have a blend of Russia, different French accents.

(: 15:44

I love that. And it really helps you think, right, where's that coming from and is that still valid? And even the idea of being boring, sometimes people might be a bit boring, but we still love them for it because they're really passionate about what it is they're talking about or we accept them for that. And like you said, we've got other things that we also really like about them, the boringness isn't a deal breaker

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 16:09

Absolutely. Yes. There are many good qualities that's I think slightly sidelined in society at the moment, but being a reliable, honest, sort of good storytelling person or perhaps not so good at storytelling, but telling your stories anyway, there's a lot to be said for that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:30

Yeah. And when I first started dating my husband, I really liked his consistency. I really liked that he would say that he would call me on a certain day at certain time and then he did it, Kate. And some of the guys I dated, this was like radical. It's like, "Oh gosh, wow. Is this how life is supposed to operate?" Because this guy does what he says. Sometimes he does extra things as well. And I think sometimes when it comes to dating, we can get use, I guess from the earlier relational patterns perhaps of our own parenting or of previous partners gone by. We can think that it's always going to be that way or that we can't ask for more. I know you've got a bit of a specialist interest in dating as well, haven't you, Kate?

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 17:25

Yes, absolutely. I went through my 30s having finished a major relationship extremely confused about why I was making certain decisions and sort of what was going on. And so I've kind of worked backwards from there now having a very lovely partner and child to produce what I wish I'd had, which is a bit of a blend of psychology informed stuff and also very, very practical ideas. And yes, the thing which got my goat when I was in this position is with attachment theory as we typically talk about it, it feels like a bit of a life sentence. It's kind of like, "Oh, you've got anxious attachment." And that doesn't really, "Oh, well, you're always going ... " And all these comments like, "Oh, water finds its own level," or you meet the partner at the stage of development that you're at and it kind of leaves you thinking, "Well, I don't want that, so what do I do?

(: 18:30

" And actually, I think when you start to blend in a bit more practical CBT-ish, schema-ish ideas, you can start to break that down for people so that they can spot things sooner and do something different. So that's where I started to develop this idea of clear, protective patterns and it really helps people in dating because they can see it and they can see it quickly. So if you think about say a helper pattern, that's someone where it's made sense from childhood to be responsible to where someone is needy or vulnerable to step forward and take responsibility, then actually if they're meeting men who most other people without that pattern would go, "Oh, no, thank you. You're clearly not in a position to give a sort of solid relationship," then they might step in, be a really great support for that person and then wonder a year later why their needs are completely off the table in the relationship and they're suddenly very unhappy but very, very attached to this person.

(: 19:34

Whereas if you know that you've got that pattern, then already you're like, "Oh, okay, so that's not good." And actually my experience that people aren't available to me is just because I've been narrowly focused on this lane of people, but there might be other people out there who would be available to me if I use that as an auto discount, move on. So that's where actually I love working with dating because you've got much more opportunity to make a completely different trajectory for somebody.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:04

Yeah. You might be more highbrow than me in my viewing, but this is reminding me of, I guess love is blind, married at first sight and love island. And people will often say, "Who's your type on paper?That's an ick gives me the ick. Oh, that's a red light, that's green behaviour, all of this. " But actually, yeah, I think having someone like you on board to help people think this through and to not think that something's a red behaviour when actually it's just different than what you've expected so long as it's not harmful psychologically or physically, maybe there's some tolerance there.

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 20:53

Yeah. I mean, there was some kind of trend, I think it was last summer, which was about, was it the princess treatment I think it was where it's kind of like you need to expect your man to treat you like a princess and if they're not doing that, then they are not worth it. And like all these things, there's kind of a kernel of truth to it because yes, you need to sort of hold a standard of behaviour that you are expecting from somebody and especially at the beginning, because that's when they're most motivated, right? But actually princess treatment, I saw these awful TikTok reels where guys were just coming in and presenting like diamond necklaces to these girls and at the start of a relationship, if what you're getting is sort flowers every day being held the door open, called every day, no, every half day, no every hour, loads of messages sort of, "Let's go away.

(: 21:49

Oh, I think I love you. Let's get married." Actually, that's not good, that's love bombing and that is a sign of someone that you're getting involved with who's got a really intense connector pattern and that is going to blow up in your face at the point where actual knowledge of each other and intimacy becomes real because there isn't a firm foundation underneath of actually, who is this person? Do we have values in common? Do we have a lifestyle that fits with each other and can they sustain this behaviour if they lose their job or if their parent gets sick? So that's where actually these kind of dating trends really, really get my goat sometimes and you need a steadier benchmark.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 22:29

Yeah, I hear you. I don't want to be anyone's princess either. Maybe I'll be my own queen, but I just wouldn't want that. That give me the icon says a lot about me. But what I do want is to be respected and to be thought of as capable and confident and nice to have around, but also to be able to tolerate my rubbisher moments because I am not a perfect person and it's that idea of I'm loved whether my behaviour is lovable at all times and that I don't need to worry about being dumped because I have a tricky day at work and take it out on my husband. It's really important. So I love this kind of curious, calm, flexible, psychologically informed approach. And I think, yeah, I hope this is really resonating for people as they listen or they watch.

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 23:34

I think there's something else to say, which is there's a very non-blaming way of looking at what contribution am I making to dynamics that later get me really upset. And so if you think about a dynamic where perhaps you're more of a pleaser or a helper, both of these things ring true. What you might do quite early on in relationships is not tune into your own needs, not speak up because it doesn't feel that important. Who cares if it's Chinese or Italian? I don't mind. But actually if that is the pattern that you are creating from the beginning, you're not even stress testing tiny sort of opportunities for someone to meet your needs. It becomes a lot harder later on to suddenly turn the relationship around and sort of show your vulnerability, show what real needs you've got. And so you can end up in a position where you're very resentful in a relationship because sort of your needs and preferences aren't taken into account, but there's actually a path you can walk from the beginning that leads you to a different place where actually you have put your needs in place, you have stated small desires and preferences and you shared small moments of vulnerability and that kind of thing is particularly important for protectors who can get the ick basically as soon as the relationship becomes intimate and some vulnerability is required.

(: 24:52

So yes, it's not just about spotting red flags in other people. There's also elements of thinking, "What dance are we doing here? What type of person might this person be? And actually how might I be feeding into a pattern that's not serving me either? And what could I do to test whether our relationship is flexible enough to be a good one for me or whether I actually should be walking away?"

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:14

Yeah. And that idea of, "Oh, I don't mind anything, you choose, that's fine." It kind of can be exhausting after a while because you think, "Well, I don't want to be the boss all the time. I'd like you to be the keeper of your own destiny." So when my mom's around my house and I'll say, "Oh, do you want a cup of tea?" And she goes, "Yeah, but I won't have black tea, a herbal one will be great." And I'll be like, "Okay, I've got about 50, so which one do you want? " "Oh, anything you choose. "I'm like, " Well, no, I want you to choose. Who go? You choose, you get to pick because you get to like the things in your life and I might give you the one that I really hate. Why should you have someone else's sloppy seconds? We really want to empower people to think, well, what are my values?

(: 26:04

What are my likes? What are my dislikes? And maybe it's okay for me to ask to have my own needs met. So maybe if I feel like that's not okay for me to do, maybe this is an older pattern, or maybe I'm around people that are not allowing me to show that side of myself, and that's all interesting information.

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 26:27

Yes, definitely. And not to plug my approach, but an aspect of it that I rather like that I think is rather clever is from my own experience, I think there was you get really good stuff out of therapy when you think about relationships in the past that haven't worked for you. You can start to spot the patterns which aren't going to serve you that you want to avoid, but what you don't really get from therapy is, okay, well then what am I actually moving towards? What does a good relationship look like? And I think this key plank is a bit like the positive memory retraining type stuff we talked about before. It's like, okay, if it's not that, what is it? And that's where you can be thinking, well, what are my core values? What kind of relationship might I really enjoy? So for some people that might be travelling the world twice a year and having a really, really busy social life and sort of tonnes of children and for other people that might be a quiet sort of seaside house with just the two of you walking along the beach every morning holding hands.

(: 27:31

But if you don't have a sense permission to just really go to your own sort of consult yourself and think what's possible and then find a way to sort of weave that into your dating process so that you can look for, is someone going to be compatible with that or not, then all you're really stuck with is avoidance and that's also can be quite paralysing when you're trying to date, especially in later life.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:55

Yeah, I love that. For my husband's 50th, we went down to a very, very lovely place in Cornwall that was just right on the clifftop, really big open windows. It had its own sauna. It was very special. We could only go for three nights. There was no weekends. It was only three nights minimum. And we did exactly that. We just spent time together going on walks, having breakfast, going and having pastas and it was all such good stuff. But because that's what we both wanted, because we've both got busy jobs, we've both got children and we're away over this weekend where we didn't have football practise, but we were just able to lounge around and read books, but also be companionable to do our own thing. So he wanted to take some photos. I wanted to sit around, read books, eat chocolate tiffing and listen to Nora Jones.

(: 28:46

Those two things have to be okay if that's, you have to be able to leave room for that. But that said, when we're talking about all these red flags and kind of communications from other relationships, it is okay to use relationships and previous relationships to work out what is a no-go. For me, there are a couple of absolute no-gos I just would not entertain in my current relationship because I've learned that from past relationships and it's like a zero tolerance approach for that particular thing because that did not make me feel psychologically safe. So we're not saying there can be no red flags. You're allowed to learn from your experiences, but just check that whatever rule you've got is functional.

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 29:33

Absolutely. So what I think is that you need a very small amount of deal breakers that are very grounded and based in your either general bad things or your personal catnip that is going to take you in the wrong direction. I definitely identified some and then still with that written down, found myself in a couple more relationships. I was like, "Oh no, I've done it again. But I think what's important when you're making your list of deal breakers is that those things are psychologically grounded and what's safe for you because what you can find is that people have almost a wishlist of needs to be so tall with such background and this amount of money and all that kind of stuff. And those things, there is evidence that some level of social and intellectual compatibility will definitely be a good thing for the relationship, but actually there's loads of different ways people can be compatible.

(: 30:32

Someone doesn't have to look like what you thought they would look like to be really good for you. So I think the deal breakers out of all the things are the most important. And then if you've got a sense of your values and the kind of lifestyle that works for you, that's where you can just be gently comparing quite a wide variety of people as to whether they will fit with that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 30:51

Oh, I love that. The catnip, that really made me smile because it gives me think, yes. Yes, I did have a lot of catnip going on. And those ideas, oh, I like tall, I like blue eyes, I like dark hair. I like a certain build. I've never dated anyone like my husband who is blondish. I always kind of went, my catnip was probably the main character energy. My husband is a drummer. So behind the scenes, keeping the pace of everything and just very much not what I would've thought I wanted on paper. And interestingly, if had been on a dating website, I might've even seen the pictures of the drums and been like, no, no swipe left. But when we met in a club with a sticky floor and I saw him in person, he just really ... I went up to him and I was a bit drunk and I spoke to him.

(: 31:43

And I think remotely I wouldn't have done that. It's led to us being together since 2010. So yeah, maybe don't discount. Thanks. Don't discount people too soon, but know that some messages, those hard and fast boundaries are important. But yeah, beware of that catnip. That is really, really good advice, Kate. Where can people learn more about you and your work?

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 32:12

They can go to my website, www.tokatesherit.com. And that's got details about my private practise and also the Find Your Person programme.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:21

Thank you so much. I'll make sure all of that is in the show notes. For anyone who is listening, I will just spell Share It. So it's S-H-E-R-R-A-D-T. Thanks so much for your time, Kate. I've so enjoyed speaking with you.

Dr Kate Sherratt (: 32:37

Me too. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. It's been a lovely conversation.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:41

It really has. Thanks so much. Thank you so much to my guest, Dr. Kate Sherit. Please do go and follow her on LinkedIn and Instagram, where she is drkate.psychologist. You might well be listening to this podcast for a variety of reasons, but if it's because you are wanting to get your career moving into clinical psychology or another one of the psychology professions, I think you'll really love all the formulating, the interview practise, the preparation, all of the reflections, all the brilliant growth that is available to you in the aspiring psychologist membership, which you can join from just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term. And if you like the idea of one-to-one time with me, if you join for either six months upfront or one year upfront, you get free time with me too. So check out the details on the screen or the details in the show notes.

(: 33:36

If you like a little peek behind the lens, a little peek behind the curtain about what life is like as a clinical psychologist and the way that I think about my work, the world, my family, myself and others, I think you'll really enjoy diving in and having a free trial of Inner Work, which is an exclusive subscriber only podcast series. You can get a free three-day trial on Apple Podcasts. You can also get a free trial on Patreon. You can even get a free minute of every episode on Patreon as well. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. Come and follow me on my social media. If you love these episodes, please do take screenshots. Please do share them to your stories. Tag me in your comments, tag me in your posts. I really do love hearing from you. If you have episode ideas that you think I should cover, come and let me know about those two.

(: 34:32

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