Personal and professional values as a Muslim psychologist - with Elisha Hussain

Jingle Guy (: 00:00

If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. With this podcast at your side, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast with Dr Marianne Trent.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:28

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. Thank you for joining me. This episode is scheduled to be released on Monday the 14th of November, 2022. If you are listening to it in that week, then please do bear in mind that the application deadline for the doctorate in clinical psychology for the clearing house applications is 1:00 PM on Wednesday, the 16th of November. I'm sure that won't have passed you by, but I just wanted to get that on your radar.

(: 01:01

So today's episode is a guest episode and I am joined by Elisha Hussain and it would be advantageous for you to listen to the episode on values if you haven't done so already. That is episode 42 of the podcast. So if you haven't listened to that, it might be useful for you to do that and then come back here for episode 49. But if you want to plough on regardless, please do.

(: 01:29

So, Elisha and I met on LinkedIn and well, you will find out how and why we got chatting, but it's all about values and we decided it would be useful to have a conversation about Elisha's culture, faith, and background, and how they align and how she keeps striving for her values as an aspiring psychologist whilst staying true to her other values, both personally and professionally too. I hope you'll find it super interesting and super useful, I know I did and I will catch you on the other side.

(: 02:07

Hi, welcome along. It is our first guest episode for a while. I am delighted to introduce you to Elisha Hussain. Hi Elisha.

Elisha Hussain (: 02:15

Hi.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:16

Thank you so much for coming on and thank you also for giving me the idea originally for the values based podcast episode.

Elisha Hussain (: 02:26

Very welcome. I think when I kind of put out a LinkedIn post, I feel like you're really active on LinkedIn and I always kind of like your posts and things like that, so it was really kind of helpful to have that episode to help me with thinking about values. That was really helpful for me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:42

Good. I love LinkedIn. I do. I can't deny it, but yeah, thank you for being involved and engaged with me on there. But then after that we thought, well actually this is really interesting to think about you specifically and some of your values and specifically we thought it might be useful in terms of your career, but also your culture and your background.

Elisha Hussain (: 03:06

Yeah, yeah. I think it's always nice to watch your podcasts and think about people who've kind of already been through that journey, but I think it'll be really nice to share my journey and hopefully when people listen to it, they can either relate to it or maybe kind of think about the differences or just inspire them around their own journey. So hopefully it can have an impact on people.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:29

Absolutely. I think it's so useful when we are working in mental health to be able to have examples of people that we can hold as case studies. So if people don't know much about your faith, your culture or how it might be even for someone living in a different part of the country, it's useful for people to have that awareness. So I think yeah, thank you so much for doing this.

(: 03:53

But also we realised in our discussion before we got started was that you are our first aspiring psychologist on the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast, which feels a bit wrong. Yeah, I'm sorry it's taken me 10 months to get here, but I know we had Rose who is a trainee, but you are our first non trainee aspiring psychologist. So yes, thank you so much for coming on and if you are listening to this episode or if you are watching on YouTube as well and you are thinking, Oh, I might like to come on the podcast, I'm an aspiring psychologist, please do get in contact with me. And as Elisha said, you can't miss me on socials. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent in most places, so don't be shy, do get in contact or just engage with my content. We'll get into conversations and marvellous things can happen. So Elisha, tell me a little bit about yourself, a little bit personally, a little bit professing me, if that's okay.

Elisha Hussain (: 04:47

Yeah, well where do I start? Yeah, so I suppose I'm Muslim by background and I've kind of been pursuing psychology, I'd probably say since school. I think outside of psychology I kind of just like to focus on my own wellbeing. I've started to try to be more persistent with going to things like gym and things like that and hopefully something that I can get back into. So I have been trying to take some time to look after myself.

(: 05:18

I think my journey within kind of psychology started probably in school, so I was really lucky to do psychology as a GCSE, which I think when I did it wasn't really heard after, it was this new exciting thing and it really kind of interested me. But yeah, I think when I started looking into it I found it really helpful. But I think when I had my own kind of difficulties with mental health, it really opened up my eyes around what I want to pursue in the future. And I think having my own experiences of mental health really kind of guided me into this career pathway and thinking about how I can move on from my experiences and how I can reflect on my experiences to help others.

(: 06:04

So yeah, I suppose when I started college I did psychology as an A level and I was volunteering with ChildLine at the time. So I find it a really helpful experience to be able to have some direct contact with young people and start giving back and using the things that I've experienced and using my knowledge to help other people. And then going on from that, I started in university, did my psychology degree and also started building up my experience. So I was really lucky to have the experience to volunteer.

(: 06:40

So when I was volunteering alongside my degree, I volunteered in a place called Paul's, which is a mental health drop in centre for young people. And it was one of the most eyeopening experiences I've had because not only just working with young people and supporting them, but just how a service that's so easily accessible can have such an impact on young people's lives. So I really kind of enjoyed just getting to know people, working with people and getting my head around how things worked and having that opportunity to support people and actually learn more about psychology in the process. So for me that was really powerful.

(: 07:25

I had the opportunity to be employed by the service, which was really amazing to be honest. And I love my time there. So I would just work with people when they dropped into the service around any of their emotional health and wellbeing needs and whatever they wanted to talk about really. So that really put me in a good stead when I was thinking about applying for assistant psychologist posts.

(: 07:52

So I was really lucky to get an assistant psychologist post straight after my role there and that's where I'm working at the moment. So I'm currently working within Black Country Healthcare Trust within a service called Action for Children, which kind of covers the area of Staffordshire. And basically I would work with young people again, young people and children and I think I've really found it helpful to work with young people and children. I think potentially when I'm working with young people I kind of reflect on my own experiences of struggling with my mental health when I was a child. So I think it was just something that I found really kind of helpful for me as well.

(: 08:34

So yeah, I've been working with young people to support them to do evidence based interventions and supporting them with their wellbeing and yeah, I've really enjoyed every moment of it and I think it's just been really helpful to be able to have the experience I've had and give back at the same time.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:57

I love that, and actually I absolutely like you said, there's something very different about putting your theory into practise isn't there for the first time and actually starting to do. I'm guessing what you've been doing is one to one work with people and starting to do that and starting to explore the comfortability of being in a room with somebody and trying to use that time together to make a difference. And that's really wonderful experience that you were able to get even before you were doing assistant work. It sounds incredible, you're starting to make a difference and get that little buzz that we get from people saying this is working, this is making a difference.

Elisha Hussain (: 09:36

Yeah, definitely. I think it was just kind of helpful to have that firsthand experience but also being able to lean into the experience and actually develop alongside. Because I feel with any kind of role where you work in someone's mental health, I think you get a lot of imposter syndrome and I think for me that was a big thing, especially with my first assistant post where I was thinking I did not belong. I've just kind of gotten here by fluke and I think it was really helpful to learn that actually it's okay to develop as you're working and reflect on your experiences because that's what helps to develop you as a practitioner really.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:12

Yeah, absolutely. I know that some other audience will be like, well how long did you work in that post then before you got your assistant post? And how long after graduation did you get your assistant post? Can you give us a little bit of timeframe if that's okay?

Elisha Hussain (: 10:26

Yeah, of course. So when I was kind of volunteering within Paul's, I was working kind of part-time alongside my undergraduate degree. So I think I was working part-time I'd say probably for a year. And then I was lucky enough to be employed by the same service and I was working with them for two years part-time.

(: 10:44

And I think for me the main thing that kind of helped me when I was applying for the assistant psychologist role was I had that two years of part-time experience, which really equated one full years of experience. But I think for me what helped even more was the service that I was applying to, I really was able to cater my experience to that service. So having worked with young people and using interventions with young people within Paul's and then applying for an assistant role, I was really able to reflect on my experiences and how I would be able to manage the differences of working within Paul's and then working within a different service. And I think that really helped me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 11:27

Definitely. But I think one of the difficult things about counting whole time equivalence is that I said it before in the podcast when I did my honorary post, it equated actually probably to like 10 days, which isn't even half a month. But because that was spread over probably three or four months, the amount of learning and development and increasing in my confidence I was able to do within that couple of months was amazing.

(: 11:58

And what we were saying before we began as well was that we really need to be changing and developing and reflecting and in the two year period you're going to be a very different person, even from the very extent that your brain is going to be more developed in terms of if you went to uni at 18, you come out at 21. By the time you're 23, your brain is almost kind of fully done-ish in terms of your frontal lobes and everything. You're going to change, if you haven't changed a great deal within those two years, that would be more worrying. But of course you were then because you've been talking the talk and walking the walk for two years and doing one to one work. So even though I hear you on the imposter syndrome, I would say that you were most very well qualified and experienced to be able to get that assistant post. And I'm not at all surprised that you did get it.

Elisha Hussain (: 12:44

Yeah, I think reflecting back now I do feel like I was ready at that time and I feel like it helped me to apply at the right time and I think using those reflection skills really helped me to think, actually I do feel ready now because I was considering it for a while, but I thought actually I want to get more out of this role before I do that. And it totally resonates with me around how actually even if you are working kind of once every week or a really kind of sparse amount of time in a different role, it really helps because I suppose alongside my current assistant role within Action for Children, I'm also doing a role swap with another service.

(: 13:22

So once every fortnight I go over to the autism assessment team and kind of support that team around autism assessments. And actually, although it's once a fortnight, you'd think, wow, that's not a lot of experience. But actually just those kind of first couple of times I've done that role swap but I've actually got so much out of it that you really kind of value that time and it's not kind of the quantity but the quality of what you're learning and what you're developing that really helps.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 13:52

That sounds brilliant. Have you sorted that out yourself informally or was that something that was offered to you?

Elisha Hussain (: 13:58

So I'd never heard of a role swap before and my supervisor kind of introduced me to the idea of it. So I'm doing it within the same trust that I'm working in. So what we did is we have a kind of assistant psychologist group within the trust and I kind of approached someone who was in another service that I wanted to get some more experience in and our supervisors kind of met with us and we kind of drew up a bit of a contract just to formalise things. So I'm getting kind of experience in her service and she's getting experience in mine and we're kind of supporting each other while still being in the same role that we are in. So it's kind of having that comfort of being in the same service but still getting more experience, which I didn't know existed. But it's great.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:42

I absolutely love that and that's making me a little bit misty-eyed as well because in the Aspiring Psychologist Collective I talk about when I was an aspiring psychologist and I came up with this idea of the assistant psychologist skills exchange, which is basically what you are saying, you know, hang out with other people and do their job with them, but actually you are swapping, which is even better because then you kind of have to kind of get on and do it.

(: 15:05

And I think, like you said, when you're doing something once a fortnight still that's twice a month you can still learn so much and it just gives you, it thickens your narrative in that area of work so that it's another tick because what we are looking at generally, not necessarily the people who are employing you, but we feel like when we're aspiring so we kind of want to do, you want to tick off older adults, you want to tick off children and young people, you want to tick off intellectual learning disabilities and autism.

(: 15:36

And it gives you another thing that just helps you feel like you've got less Achilles' heels. So we absolutely go to training with Achilles' heels with things that we know we need to learn and shape and develop and everything should be shaped and developed during training, but for you to feel like you've earned your stripes enough to be there, I think that's really, really useful.

Elisha Hussain (: 15:57

Yeah, definitely. And I think I'm really lucky that I'm in a post right now that's... I've been in the post for over a year and my contract keeps getting extended thankfully. But yeah, it's nice to not kind of be in that position where I have to leave to get to more experience because I think sometimes when you're enjoying an AP job and you have that ability to stay there, actually it's nice to explore those different options without having to leave where you're currently at. And I think that's a really nice way to get experience and understand what you enjoy doing and as well as a tick box kind of getting that experience just from finding out what you enjoy in terms of when you're working as well. So that that's been nice.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:39

That is brilliant. And actually what you get to do is you get to deepen your relationships with the team you're working in and with your supervisor and managerial staff too because it can feel a little bit like treadmilly, can't it? People just coming on to a role and then dropping off. But I know that qualified staff listen to this podcast sometimes too. And so this is a way of actually retaining your staff and having your staff be able to think deeper and more holistically about the clients and services you're working with. So I would urge you to think about whether you might be able to do, I've forgotten what it's called, role swap, was it?

Elisha Hussain (: 17:17

Yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 17:18

Yeah, role swap within your service because it's going to bring value to your service. Even you seeing the way that they set up referrals, assessments, talking about team meetings and stuff, all of that. If you see something that's working well in practise for another service, you're more likely to bring that back and that might lead to rich improvements for your own service too.

Elisha Hussain (: 17:40

Yeah, definitely. And I think especially at the beginning we've been kind of supporting each other so I'd do role swap and the other girl in the other service would support me in the role. So it's not like you're completely in a new place, you're kind of being supported and then slowly you can just do the swap completely. And I think that can kind of help you feel more supported as well. But I do think it's really helpful and I'm glad I got to know about it so hopefully other people can explore that option as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 18:06

Yeah, thank you. Well done to your supervisor. Hats off to them. I'm very excited about that. And I know there'll be lots of little ears listening to this going, oh that sounds good. Because I was talking just on a live yesterday when you get that feeling that you've plateaued and you're like, oh no, I'm going to have to start looking for other jobs. But maybe this is a way around that. So thank you so much. Right. So we are thinking about culture and faith. Could you tell us a little bit for anybody who doesn't know about Islam, could you tell us a little bit about what it involves and perhaps how you slot it into your life before we then begin to think about values?

Elisha Hussain (: 18:47

So yeah, as a Muslim I feel like everybody kind of has their own kind of connection with faith and I think, I feel like Islam is a religion, but it's also a way of life. So I'd say that actually when we're thinking about Islam it's kind of we have our kind of core beliefs which is kind of faith in God and believe in what God has revealed to us and live in our life according to what God's ordered for us and what God wants us to do.

(: 19:14

But I think a big part of that is actually it supports your way of life. So it's not just us thinking that actually it's loads of rules and it's loads of things to abide by, but actually it's things that kind of enrich your life. And I think the main kind of value and belief that I feel like is important within being a Muslim is having that faith and actually understanding that when we struggle with things or when things become hard, these are things that kind of strengthen our beliefs as a Muslim but also kind of help us to persevere but help us to get through difficult times.

(: 19:58

So I suppose when we're talking about being a Muslim, I feel like it can mean we can be on different journeys as a Muslim and I feel like it's all about reconnecting to our faith. So when we're talking about values, I feel like that's incredibly important as a Muslim because as Muslims we kind of have certain values that we kind of live our lives by, but also personal values. So when we're thinking about what it means to be a Muslim, we kind of think about our faith and what God wants from us as human beings, but also kind of how we can live our life by our values and do those things as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:36

Brilliant, thank you so much for that. So we've spoken about values, now would be a good chance to introduce the values that we've gone through and you've selected for today. So we thought it'd be better to do this bit the bit before off camera because otherwise it's like what? Is that me again? What? What? So yeah. Okay., So the first of our values is acceptance, to be open to and allowing of things I dislike or don't want in myself, others, and the world around me. How that sings out to you and how it's important for you both in terms of your faith, culture and your work.

Elisha Hussain (: 21:13

Yeah, so I think acceptance is a value that I feel like I've started to live by. I feel like when we're living our life by our values, we can weigh in terms of going back and forth in terms of actually being able to live by our values. But I feel like acceptance is a core value for me in terms of faith.

(: 21:32

I feel like when we experience difficult things and hard things happen as a Muslim I feel like actually we kind of feel that these experiences are tests from God and actually that there to help us to move forward in life and actually when difficulty falls on us that actually being able to accept what's happened helps you to move on from that. And I feel like it's a big thing with me in terms of my own mental health and accepting my own experiences because I feel like there was a time where I might have been challenging how I'd been feeling and wanting to forget things or push them away.

(: 22:19

And I found that the more that I was pushing my experiences away, the more that I was struggling with them and actually having that acceptance of things happen for a reason and actually being able to move on from that has really helped me. But I also feel like it's kind of helped me in my professional career as well. So I feel like there was a time where if I experienced a rejection that I would take that very pit personally and I'd kind of really reflect badly on myself. And I have a lot of feelings of shame and just feeling like I'm not good enough. And I know I've kind of applied for the doctorate course before and I know that's something that others might have experienced of where you feel where if your application isn't accepted or if you don't get that job or if things don't pan out the way that we want them to pan out, we really take hold that personally and we get hung up on it.

(: 23:14

And I feel when we're able to be more accepting of changes. And I think that's something that I've found that when I've been more accepting of changes, it's helped me to move on and reflect on things and thinking about actually what's kind of led me to this point or how can I move on from this. And I think previously I was very goal based when I was thinking about my career. So I was very like, I need to get an assistant job and then I need to get onto the course and it's all time limited and if it doesn't happen I don't know what I'm going to do. But when I'd started to be more accepting, I found that actually I found more enjoyment in things. I found that actually I could enjoy my assistant job a lot more because I was spending time enjoying my experiences rather than thinking about what's next. So that's helped me I think.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 24:04

Good, you were good, really big pleased to hear that. And yeah, it's about being able to look sideways as well isn't it? Not just forwards and some really important points you've raised there. Okay. All right, thank you. So the second of our values is persistence, to continue resolutely with your task or challenge despite problems, fears and difficulties.

Elisha Hussain (: 24:29

Yeah, so I feel like that does relate to a little bit of what I've talked about in terms of acceptance, but I feel like we all kind of go through the things in our life where we struggle. And I think when I've kind of thought about back to my experiences, I feel like there was a time where I might have struggled with persistence where I've tried to persist and I felt that actually I wasn't able to live my life according to that value.

(: 24:53

But actually when I was able to persist and when I was able to show persistence, how effective that was for me. So I know when I was struggling with my mental health I really struggled to kind of move forward and to go forward with things. And I think when I had that ability to persist, it really kind of bettered me as a person, not only just how I was feeling but made me more, I feel resilient as a person and I think it's something that I try to move forward in my general life when things are difficult I feel like sometimes I can find it difficult and I might want to give up, but then when I do persist I'm grateful that I have and I think everybody who's listening would have times in their life where they've felt that they've kind of experienced something that was really difficult, whether that be in the personal life or professional.

(: 25:48

And I think with psychology it is one of those kind of careers where persistence is really important. We know actually it is a competitive kind of place, but actually when we do persist we can see those rewards and I think just persisting in what we want to do in our career can be really helpful and moving forward with the steps and even if you do receive news that isn't what you wanted to hear, being able to move forward from that shows that persistence. So yeah, I do feel like we reflect that as psychologists.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:23

Definitely. And is there some crossover with your faith in terms of persistence as well? What does your faith teach us about persistence for example?

Elisha Hussain (: 26:32

Yeah, so I think in Islam there there's a concept called sabr which is basically meaning that when we go through things that are difficult or when we go through trials and tribulations, that when we show persistence and we're able to move forward with things that actually we are rewarded for that and we're able to get benefits from that. And I think it's very much about we do as much we can to change the situation and move forward, but in cases where we've done our best and we can't kind of change a situation, it's about keeping faith thinking that actually things will get better. And showing that kind of ability to move forward when we can and when we're not able to move forward, actually keeping faith helps us to stay grounded and move forward in our lives.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:24

Thank you for that. As we were talking about persistence before off camera, we also thought about the other value of patience. So now might be an interesting and useful time to think about the value of patience, which is might be versus persistence or in addition to persistence.

Elisha Hussain (: 27:41

So I think I was touching on it a little bit towards the end it kind of veered into patience where actually we think about, we always persist and push forward, but there are points where sometimes the best thing that we can do is be patient. And actually something like acceptance commitment therapy really sits well with me because I feel like we change what we can change and what is in our control, but when we're struggling and actually there isn't anything that we can do, it is about accepting that and being patient and thinking about actually there isn't anything that I can do to change the situations.

(: 28:17

How do I move forward from here? And when I was talking about persistence in relation to being a Muslim, I feel that patience is really important because we know when we wait and when we keep faith that actually it can be really, really helpful to us as people to understand that sometimes things aren't in our control, but what we can do is be patient and kind of persevere and move forward with things. And I think within psychology you have to be a bit patient. And I know it's one thing that I learned when I did my first [inaudible 00:28:51] application, I didn't realise how patient I'd have to be in terms of finding out if you get accepted, if you get an interview, it's a long time to wait. But you definitely show that patience to be able to wait through and persistent and spend that time to do that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:12

Absolutely. The struggle is real. It goes on a long time.

Elisha Hussain (: 29:14

Yes.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:19

But by the time this episode goes out I think we will she just be on the cusp of submissions for this year. So the waiting game begins. So yeah, we will come back to that in future as well. Thank you Elisha. So the next is curiosity, to be curious, open minded and interested, eager to explore, discover and learn.

Elisha Hussain (: 29:41

Yeah, so I think as a Muslim we are always encouraged to be curious. So it's always about seeking knowledge and being curious about what you believe as well. So when we are reconnecting to our faith or connecting to our faith that we want to be able to be curious about, what our faith means and what our faith means to us. And we are encouraged to seek knowledge and develop.

(: 30:05

So it's not about us just saying actually this is what you believe and that's it. But we always are encouraged to kind of go further and seek more knowledge and think about how that relates to us. And I feel like curiosity for me as a person is really important as well because I feel like curiosity kind of opens the doors to being open minded. So when we're curious about things we can be more accepting, we can be more tolerant and things like that.

(: 30:37

So I feel like within my experience within psychology, being curious has really helped me because I feel like when reflecting back on previous experiences, sometimes I could have been quite rigid minded and thinking actually trying to fit people into a formulation rather than the other way around. And I think when we're curious and when we kind of keep an open mind and we kind of question things, we can really consider a whole situation and things and how to best support someone but also how we can move forward with our own career. So when we're kind of curious about what we enjoy, what we find helpful, it helps us to develop as a psychologist but also kind of develop what we want to do going forward.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 31:23

Brilliant, thank you so much for that one. And next one is contribution, to contribute, give, help, assist, share, or be generous.

Elisha Hussain (: 31:33

So I feel like my journey within psychology kind of started on me reflecting on wanting to contribute and share my experience. Well share what I've learned from my experiences with people. So being able to support other people with their own mental health. And I think for many other aspiring psychologists or psychologists that would be similar in wanting to help people and make a contribution. And I do feel like it's a profession which is really rewarding, which is amazing and I feel like that kind of extends into faith and me as a Muslim because I feel like as a Muslim we're kind of encouraged to contribute. So we are encouraged to give charity, help others and support people. So actually when I'm working as an assistant psychologist, I feel like I'm living my life as per my values, not only as a person and as a psychologist but also as a Muslim and being able to give back to people, which is really rewarding for me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:35

It must feel like double bubble. I often say I've got the best job in the world, but if you are also singing from your hymn sheet for your faith as well as as your own personal and professional kind of passions, it must just feel so, I don't know, uplifting, energising, all of those good terms.

Elisha Hussain (: 32:53

Yeah, definitely. I feel like when you work in a profession where you are also able to reconnect to your values but also to your faith, it does feel like that. It feels like a double reward because I feel like when I'm supporting other people to live life by their values, it also helps me to reflect on my values and what's important to me. And then it's almost like that thing where you practise where you preach and I think sometimes as psychologists we can sometimes give the best advice and not take that advice to ourselves. And I feel like that's something that's been really important to me is being able to relate the things that I use in practise to my own life as well, which I feel like has made me a better psychologist as well as a better person I think.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 33:41

Absolutely. There's a recent episode I did about using our own skills to navigate our own mental health and once we start to do that, it's not rocket science is it? When the stuff we are saying is brilliant, when we actually use it, we do feel better of course we should be doing it and we should make time for it. So yeah, I totally agree. And the last of our identified values is compassion, to be acting kindly towards ourselves and or others when in pain.

Elisha Hussain (: 34:10

So I feel like I've always been quite compassionate towards other people and I feel like kind of choosing psychology as a career kind of helped me to live my life according to being compassionate. I feel like one of the things that I've always struggled with is using that compassion tool.

(: 34:27

Myself and I feel like that's a very hard thing to do, but when we are able to do it and we're able to build those skills, it makes things so much better and it makes you be able to reflect on things so much better. So I feel like when I am able to be more self-compassionate, I do feel like I get more reward out of things because actually I feel like sometimes we can be quite hard on ourselves and we live life according to our values in terms of showing compassion to other people but sometimes don't apply those same values to ourselves. And I think that can be really, really important. So yeah, I think that has helped incredibly. I think.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 35:08

It really can. And I know I keep saying about all this stuff that happens off camera and people are like why couldn't we listen to the off camera? Sounds great. One of the least downloaded episodes of this podcast series is the one on self compassion and actually that's the one that's going to be the difference that makes a difference. So everybody download that one as well because you're so right, it's so important.

(: 35:30

Just before we finish, because I'm aware of the time, I picked up a couple of values that I thought might be useful for us to talk to as one point really. Really based on my observations of having worked in a Central Birmingham Service with people who follow Islam and I guess going to Friday prayers and for the male members of the staff, I don't know if it's open to women yet, I'm not sure perhaps culturally naive of me to admit that, but at the time when I was there it was males only for Friday prayers and stopping and having prayer rooms and things like that.

(: 36:02

And also for people not watching on YouTube, you are a hijab wearer And so I'm aware that there's different thoughts and feelings and expectations of people accessing services about I guess a number of factors that are not always nice, you know? And to be blunt about that. And I guess I was thinking about assertiveness, respect, flexibility, and freedom. So to other people to have freedom of choice and actions but also being respectful and your perhaps assertiveness to be able to stop and say actually I do need to stop now because I need to do this or I can't do that because that's outside of what I believe or what I feel comfortable with. But also whether there's any room for flexibility around some of this. Is it okay to have a brief conversation about some of that Elisha?

Elisha Hussain (: 36:57

Yeah, that sounds like a good conversation. I feel like one of the things to kind of point out is I definitely feel like there are rules with all religions and all kind of cultures I feel like as well. So I feel like we all kind of have points of assertiveness and things that we morally want to do or believe and I feel like that's kind of exists in all of us. And I think when we're thinking about religion, I feel like it's really important to think, yeah, there's definitely things that we should do and things that we shouldn't do in terms of what we believe as Muslims. And I feel like when we're thinking about assertiveness, I suppose the reason that we do it is because of our devotion to what we've been told by God and what's been instructed by us by God.

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And I think when we're thinking about assertiveness as well, I think it's helpful to think about things in terms of we have that kind of trust and belief that the things that have been decreed to us and the things that we are told to do help us live a better life. And actually when we're thinking about being a Muslim and we think about giving charity and that's something that's ordained on us and fasting to consider people who are less fortunate and all those kind of things, it helps you to reflect on yourself as a person but helps you to live life according to your values and helps you to live as a better person.

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And I suppose we have that belief that God knows better than us and I suppose sometimes our kind of desires or the things that we want to do might kind of go against our values and it's thinking about how we can live our life according to our values and even if we do things that we're not supposed to do or doing things that kind of take us away from our values, I think a big thing within Islam is being able to notice that and then seeking forgiveness for it, but then going back to living our life by our values.

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So I feel like sometimes when we're thinking about things it's about how actually we know that we all kind of at points in our lives move away from our values. But the important part is noticing that and coming back because we know nobody's perfect and it's hard when we kind of hold ourselves to perfection. But when we understand that actually as humans we aren't perfect and we can't do things all the time, then we are more likely to reflect on ourselves and then being able to live our life by our values more. And I feel like that's where kind of forgiveness comes in. But also freedom as well.

(: 39:39

We believe that everybody has the freedom to choice so everybody has the freedom to believe what they want to believe and there's no kind of force or there's no kind of compulsion within religion. So you are kind of held accountable for what you do, but if you don't believe in Islam or if you don't kind of believe in those things, you have a freedom to do that.

(: 40:03

But I suppose that's then your kind of responsibility, but it doesn't mean that you don't have the freedom to kind of choose. And yeah, I think that then ties into respect and I think a big thing that we are taught is respecting people despite their differences. So no matter what your kind of religion or culture that actually we should treat people with respect and kindness. And that's something that I suppose when you kind of look at the life of the Prophet peace be upon him, he kind of showed that within his life work and I think we kind of take our role models how we should be living as Muslims and what our values should be from the prophet and that's how we kind of aim to live our lives. So yeah, I feel like that might have touched upon the different parts, but I think from my reflections as a Muslim, that's what I would believe. But yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:57

Brilliant, thank you. And thank you for also mentioning fasting because that's a very big and important part of your faith and something that I've supported clients through as well. And I always from my perspective I feel like I would dread that time of the year, but actually all of the clients that I've worked with love it. They find it really energising, they find it a really nice time to come together with their families and their community and they really feel that it's a privilege and they really enjoy it and benefit from it.

Elisha Hussain (: 41:28

Yeah, definitely. And I think when you think about fasting, everyone's thinking, oh you can't eat and drink for a really long time. And that's true. And I think when we think about Ramadan, it's more than just fasting. So I suppose when we're in Ramadan it's a time of reflection and reconnecting to faith and I feel like that's a time where we kind of remove distractions.

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So we tried our best to refocus and I think the reason that we enjoy it so much is because it gives us that chance to live our life by our values and reconnect. And I think sometimes life takes over and sometimes we move away from our values, but having that time sometimes helps us to realise why our values are important to us, but then also being able to reconnect and thinking about reflection as well because I think it's a big period of time where we reflect on ourselves and where we want to be, but also reflecting on those who are less fortunate to us and helping those as well. So kind of giving charity and things like that is something that's a big part of our religion to help other people.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:31

Lovely, thank you so much. Before we finish, when we're working in services, we have the right to receive dignity, respect and no hostility from people, but when I've worked in services that hasn't always been the case. And so it's just for us to pay lip service to the fact that if you're not feeling like people are respecting you regardless of your culture, regardless of your background or perhaps in spite of your culture and background, that you don't need to tolerate any kind of substandard treatment from service users. And certainly within the NHSS's zero tolerance process for accepting that and that I think it's a criminal offence to rule people out, and single people out because of their culture and their faith. And I hope that's not cropped up for you, but I know that in modern Britain certainly that's not always the case for all Muslims.

Elisha Hussain (: 43:26

Yeah, I think when I'm reflecting on my own experiences, I feel like it has been the case sometimes and I think sometimes it's very hard to identify, I think because I feel like when we're thinking about diversity and inclusion, I feel like we are now kind of more diverse in psychology profession and within the UK. But I suppose when we are thinking about discrimination and things like that, I feel like within the UK it can be quite subtle.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 43:57

Microaggressions.

Elisha Hussain (: 43:58

Yeah, definitely as a word. And I think sometimes it's very hard to pinpoint and address when there are microaggressions, but I feel like there can be just as harmful as things that are kind of more straightforward and obvious. But I think when we are thinking about our differences in cultures, I do feel like when we're thinking about service users it can sometimes really, really help when we're working with service users to think about what our social grace is and thinking about the service user's social graces and thinking about the impact of culture, religion and loads of different kind of diversities.

(: 44:37

But I suppose when we're working with clients we can kind of come across that where we do kind of experience those microaggressions and I think it's important to reflect on that. And I think in my own experiences, I've done my best as I can as a practitioner, but then reflecting back in supervision and thinking actually that's not something that I should have to tolerate.

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So where do we go from here? And I think supervision is a great place I think to be able to identify how that affects us. Because I think sometimes within sessions we can think about the impact on the service user, but when you're kind of being on the receiving end of microaggressions and potential discrimination, that's going to affect you as a person and I think that's where we can identify how things can change or how you can be supported with that, which I think is really important as well. But yeah, sorry I've completely forgot what the original question was.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 45:35

That's all right. You did really well. I was just trying to google the name because when you mentioned social graces, I was trying to remember his name but it's John Burnham and his work around social graces and if anyone knows John, I have invited him on the podcast and I haven't heard back but I'd love to have him on the podcast. So I have had the fortune of being taught by him a couple of times and I'd love to have him on.

(: 45:54

So if you are working in a service with John Burnham, give him a prod and invite him on the podcast and getting to get in contact with me. Elisha, thank you so much for today. It's been such a richly enjoyable, rewarding podcast episode. I've really, really enjoyed it. It's been lovely getting to know more about you and your culture and your faith and your work as well. If I could give out [inaudible 00:46:20] inside places, I'd give you one because I think you sound so ready for training. You really sound very thoughtful and competent and professional and I feel like our young people are in safe hands with you.

Elisha Hussain (: 46:36

Thank you for so much for having me. I think I feel really special for being able to kind of come on and share my experiences. But yeah, if you were given out [inaudible 00:46:45] places I'd take one. So yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 46:47

Well wishing you all the best with the upcoming season. I don't know if you've got your application in already or whether you are about to get that ticked off and sent off. You don't have to queue at the post office like I did, now it's more an electronic process. But yeah, wishing you the best of luck with this and yeah, do stay in my world. Please stay interactive with myself on LinkedIn because I always love our little chat. So thank you so much for joining me and for being our first aspiring psychologist on the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast, which took me almost 10 months.

Elisha Hussain (: 47:20

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be able to be on here.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 47:24

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you found that as you know, invigorating and interesting and inspiring as I did. I feel excited for Elisha's future.

(: 47:37

If you have really liked the idea of aspiring psychologist being on the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast and you think you've got an interesting story to tell and you'd like to talk to me about it and talk to our listeners about it, then please do slip into my DMs on my socials. You can find me, Dr. Marianne Trent most places. Please do come and connect. I do really enjoy helping you celebrate your wins. So please do connect with me. And if you would welcome even more support and encouragement, do think about coming along to the Aspiring Psychologist membership where you can join us for 30 pounds a month and we think about ways of advancing you professionally and personally.

(: 48:19

We've got all sorts of good stuff in there, including monthly CBT formulation and scales, as well as other guest sessions from other specialist people each month to looking at research, psychodynamic approaches, systemic, cat approaches and loads more. As well as your weekly chance to catch up with me, ask me any questions you like and of course our monthly group zooms as well with me.

(: 48:45

So yeah, there's absolutely loads going on. It's a lovely place to be. So do please give it some consideration if you think it might be a good fit for you. For more information, check out the show notes or you can check out any of the links in my bios on my socials. In the meantime, do come and join us in the Aspiring Psychologist Community, free group on Facebook and we can talk about this episode and how perhaps your intersectionality crops up for you in psychology. So yeah, thank you again for being part of my world and yeah, I'll look forward to catching up with you in our next episode, which will be available from 6:00 AM on Monday. Take care of you.

Jingle Guy (: 49:24

Reflective account of mental health professionals. On their way to getting qualified. So many tips and lessons to learn from, so many things that you can try. The Aspiring Psychologist Collective. The Aspiring Psychologist Collective.

(: 49:24

If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. With this podcast at your side, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast with Dr Marianne Trent.