How to start a psychology career in your 30's & beyond - DClinPsy - mature student, grief, turning 40

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

On today's episode, we are talking with Thomas, who is an incoming trainee clinical psychologist. We are talking about so many interesting things, namely being a slightly older applicant, and also starting studying later in life as well, following revelations in a personal life that made existential ponderings happen. It's a fascinating listen, I hope you'll find it so useful. And also, stay tuned right to the end for Thomas's top tips on how to reduce burnout, along the way to becoming whatever psychologist you aim to be.

(: 01:11

It's been my absolute pleasure to be bringing this podcast to you since December, 2021, and I have no plans to stop. So if you have any ideas for content you'd love to hear about, please do let me know. Our guest for today's episode did get in contact with me via LinkedIn, and I have to say the first time I didn't see the message, but he responded again in a message to something he'd heard me say in the podcast as a call out for if people had ideas. And that was about the age of you, compared to your supervisor and how the dynamics play out. And that is absolutely something that's cropping up in today's episode. And it's really fascinating stuff. It's a really useful listen or watch if you're watching on YouTube. If you are watching on YouTube, please do take a moment to like, to subscribe, to put a comment in and to share the content if you think I think it's useful and other people might benefit too. Please do also come along and discuss this episode in my free Facebook group, which is the Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr. Marianne Trent. If you are listening on Spotify or Apple, please do take a moment to rate and review. It really does mean so much. So with no further ado, let's plough on with this episode and I'll catch you on the other side.

(: 02:38

So just want to welcome along, Thomas who is an incoming trainee clinical psychologist to the podcast. Hi Thomas.

Thomas Gourley (: 02:44

Hi Marianne. Thank you for having me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:46

Oh, well thank you for reaching out and I'm sorry that I did miss your first LinkedIn message, but persistence definitely pays off.

Thomas Gourley (: 02:53

I am nothing if not persistent, that's for sure.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:57

I love that. So we're gonna hear about a variety of different reasons why I think that you make a great podcast guest and why our audience are gonna really love what you've got to say. But anybody watching on YouTube, you might well have noticed that Thomas is my age and we've also coordinated our outfits beautifully, we've gone for the same shade of burned orange. so yeah, you are 42, is that right, Thomas?

Thomas Gourley (: 03:28

Yes, I am. Yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:31

Fellow '81 baby maybe, but yeah, how is 40, how's 42 working out for you so far?

Thomas Gourley (: 03:39

so far it's been pretty great. I think my forties have so far been my best decade. and I think the way it's shaping up, it's gonna continue to go that way. So yeah, I think 40 is pretty great. I'm quite glad to be here in my forties.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:02

I know. I feel similarly and yet it was something I was dreading. I know it's something I spoke about on the podcast recently, but I really thought it was gonna all be downhill and quite depressing and I'd feel awful and old and like my life was over.

Thomas Gourley (: 04:20

Yeah, I think, I think in my twenties, I think, well, I, I don't even think I even thought about getting to 40 or what that would look like, but I think, I think it was probably like quite grey like visually in my mind. I think it was all in black and white and it was all quite boring and sombre. but it isn't, it's burnt orange instead

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:41

I was just thinking

Thomas Gourley (: 04:42

Quite interesting.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:43

Forties is burnt orange colour, you know, so was lavender and lilac is seventies and eighties, but clearly forties is burnt orange. But I think it didn't help me that when I was 39 just before the world ground to a halt with a pandemic, my eyes packed up and I suddenly needed glasses. And I was like, oh God, this is so depressing. This is just what my forties is gonna be. There's gonna be one ailment after another.

Thomas Gourley (: 05:09

Yeah. Since, since leaving university, which maybe we'll come onto. 'cause I only recently left university. yeah, I got into, I got into my job and I started to get headaches and migraines. So hence, hence I also now wear glasses and the yeah, the person who did my eye test, she did say, wow, it's just a sign of ageing. And I was like, oh, terrific. Here it comes. It's already here. Absolutely. Here it comes.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:37

Absolutely. I've also got a verysimilar pair of glasses to you as well as we could be like twins burnt orange and black framed glasses twins.

Thomas Gourley (: 05:46

Yeah, so it's burnt orange and kind of roundish glasses as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:52

That's where it's at. That's where all the cool kids hang out, I think. Yeah. So yeah, you mentioned there that you went to university a little later than probably the average listener would've done, could you guide us through your steps a little bit, if that's okay?

Thomas Gourley (: 06:08

Yeah. so definitely older than the kind of typical so I never went to university at the, at the kind of typical age partly because I never finished my A Levels, so whoops. I tried, tried twice and didn't get to the end either time. so I wasn't qualified to go to university, but I, I also wasn't I dunno, just personally, emotionally, developmentally qualified to take that either. so instead I just spent a decade and a half moving from job to job, completely disparate squiggle of a, of a path. so I, I was, yeah, that was maybe 15 years. I guess I had a significant life event in my mid thirties, the kind of the kind of life event that makes you very quickly and clearly reassess what it is that you're doing, why you're doing it, and it kind of distils all of the, the nonsense that you tell yourself.

(: 07:27

so that's what happened to me and I very quickly decided that enough was enough of not doing anything without a great deal of purpose or direction, and to actually do the thing that secretly was the thing that I always wanted to do and the thing that I would always like to develop as, which is to be some kind of psychologist. so yeah, so I, I went part-time in my job. not having any A levels was a bit of a barrier, still a barrier to university. So I, I did a, an access to higher education course, which is a kind of part-time, part-time one year course, which is equivalent to two A levels. And I did that in psychology, sociology and social policy. and then from that I got into my undergrad, and that was in 2018, so I graduated 2021. So yeah, not, not the, the typical timeline, definitely not.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:29

But actually you've encompassed a whole pandemic there as well. So you were, you were studying your undergrad during that time?

Thomas Gourley (: 08:38

yeah, it was epiphany term, second year, wasn't it? So so that's basically half, half of the degree. and half of the experience of being at university was then kind of taken away from us. I, I think part of me actually still mourns the death of that third year in terms of the experience of it. I know everyone will have their own version of, of this, but I think for, for me and, and, and maybe other people in my cohort that's, that was our experience of, of, of having that taken away. which yeah, I, i I still wish it, there are things left undone, things left unsaid that always will be which is a shame, but like I said, everyone has their own version of that in some way. So

Dr Marianne Trent (: 09:33

Absolutely. I wrote some stuff for the media about grief linked to the pandemic that was not to do with death and dying. And there's so many things that so many of us missed out on. And like you said, that can't be, can't be undone. They can't, you can't get a do over a redo on them. And it's okay to be sad and to grieve for something, even though you might not have lost somebody you know, through death in the pandemic. It's okay to grieve for important life events that didn't get to happen as they would've done otherwise.

Thomas Gourley (: 10:05

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I think there's a lot to be said for the, the death of a fantasy, a projected death and I, that plays out in, that plays out in my role as well. My current role that I see what people imagine their future and their life is going to be doesn't happen. And that there's a, there's a, there is, yeah, there is a, there is a struggle in moving from the fantasy to, to reality and, and reconciling that those those two things are, are never going to be the same.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:40

Yeah.

Thomas Gourley (: 10:41

The, there was a, a small version of that for me, not, not comparable, but a, a version, my own version.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:48

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like I want to ask you a thousand other questions about other things you've mentioned, but what I want to do before we move on is to just say, gosh, we're done. Like, you know, you make it sound quite easy that you drop down to part-time and did a whole degree during the whole pandemic whilst working and, you know, running your own life in the background as well. But you know, there's clearly something that really resonated with you that made you accountable to yourself and gave you permission to take yourself seriously and to do what it was you wanted. And I think that's incredible. And you know, just hats off to you for treating yourself with respect and thinking about what you want the next 40 years to look like, rather than just thinking, you know, it's the, it's the sunk cost fallacy, isn't it? Dunno if you've heard that term before, but you think, well, oh, you know, I've already had 35 years of this and it's been all right, I'll just carry on as I am. But you were like, no, actually by the time I get to the next 35, 40 years, I'd like to, to think that there's been a different chunk of my life.

Thomas Gourley (: 11:58

Yeah. I, I love that reflection. And that's, that's absolutely the process that happened in, in a, as I said, with this kind of significant life event. It, it, it happened in a very, very short space of time, just within just a few weeks. and in terms of the sunk-cost fallacy absolutely, because one of the things that I left behind was playing music and songwriting, which I'd been kind of living a parallel life alongside my kind of day jobs that I didn't really care about or wasn't really developing in almost kind of intentionally because I was trying to become a professional songwriter. and I'd spent a long time doing that and developing it, and it was part of my identity. I was really committed, or I thought I was I thought I enjoyed it. I thought it was good for me.

(: 12:50

And just within a few weeks all of that, I dropped it all. I dropped the whole thing from, from who I was and what I was doing and yeah. So in the SCOs fallacy was, it was this really clear period of time where every, everything became kind of HD and it was like, none of none of this is, is really worth anything to me or to maybe even to anybody else. not, not in a wider sense of things. And it's, yeah, what you said about accountabilities. Absolutely. One of the, the first thoughts, one of the, the foundational thoughts that I had was just really simply at some point, I'm going to die and it's gonna be sooner than I think, and I had better have more to show for it than, than what I have right now. And what I have right now isn't enough. And if today was the last day, I would be really disappointed with myself. so yeah, really insightful reflection in terms of the accountability, and that's, that's what it is really. Mm-hmm. And part of that process was actually leaving myself to be accountable only to myself.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:04

Yeah, absolutely. It's powerful stuff. Thank you for sharing that with us. And as you speak, I'm remembering my dad who died when he was 71, much sooner than we would've liked, but you know, his deathbed regrets and they're always quite interesting to think about what, what people think about on their deathbed and his was, you know, wish I'd worked harder in school, but yours will now not be that because you've had that sort of epiphany moment that you have been able to think about doing things differently, you know, and, you know, that's really powerful stuff.

Thomas Gourley (: 14:38

Yeah. I mean, it's been powerful enough to make me change everything that I was doing, basically to become completely unrecognisable in the space of five years from what, from what it was mm-hmm. So yeah. And it continues to be the driver and continues to help. I suppose also, like you said about looking ahead for the, the next 40 years. Yeah. Those, that is something that I think about and think to construct and maybe I'm building a fantasy that I have to adjust and reconcile with not achieving, but but I have, I have those things laid out now, whereas before I didn't, not really it was quite vague.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 15:23

I, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of thinking about trauma and recovery. So trauma is my specialty and I'm thinking about it being about seven years actually since you started this kind of moment of, of growth and change. And it's said that in seven years, all of our cells will renew. and so, you know, even the cells on your arm are actually different than they were seven years ago. And that can be a helpful thing for people to grapple with when they've been, for example, assaulted or hurt. It's like actually the body now that you have is now different than the body that that was hurt by that person. And that can be really helpful. But in thinking about recovery and mental health recovery, I think you are, you've done something really incredible and something that's gonna be a real gift to people that might hear this podcast episode even in years to come, that they might be in a position now that feels like they're feeling quite stuck, quite trapped.

(: 16:28

So think what you've done there really beautifully is you've given hope to so many people who might be struggling at the moment, who might be struggling to imagine that their life could ever be different, that they could be working in a career that they enjoy, that they could be looking forward to the next decades of their life, not just scraping by, that they can potentially enter a realm of pay and rewards that are going to be, you know, offering them and their family financial security, not just now, but in terms of pension as well. And I think, wow, what a gift for people to think how much they could turn their lives around and, you know, you've done it. And I think that's just incredible. Again, hats off to you.

Thomas Gourley (: 17:19

Thanks. I haven't really thought about it in that way. I'll leave, I'll leave that for you to to say things like that don't really sit very comfortably with me, the idea that I might inspire somebody. so, but yeah, that's maybe the middle child in me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 17:38

It could well be, it could well be. and I know something else you mentioned that I'd not heard of was a colourful leadership test. we've obviously both burnt orange, but could you tell us a little bit about that for people that might be listening?

Thomas Gourley (: 17:54

Oh so in the service I work in, we, we have two trainees, we always have two second year trainees. So occasionally I get to kind of dip into some of their teaching. And we were talking about it, it was part of their, their leadership training. they were looking at four different personality types and that these personality types were kind of colour coded. I must preface this by saying I don't, I dunno if this is like an evidence-based thing or not but it was pretty cool regardless. And the, I, the i, the exercise was that there was a whole bunch of words put on the screen and you have to really quickly without trying to think about it too much write down the words that you think really relate to you are really, really vibe with you.

(: 18:48

So so you do that really quickly. And then on the next screen, all those words are then colour coded. So then you count up how many greens you have, how many reds you have, how many blues, and how many yellows. And the idea is that whichever colour you have, the most of that's your dominant kind of personality type. so mine was green which apparently most of their cohort was, so I guess I'm, maybe I'm doing something right in choosing this pathway. so green, green was all about kind of, so what one of, one of the, one of the things that, that it then splits is so a green, a green person a green personality. this is so squidgy, isn't it? so fluffy, but the green personality on a good day, this is what they look like.

(: 19:36

So they look like they're compassionate, they're kind, they're patient. It's like, okay, that's, that sounds like someone who could do, do well as a psychologist. And then it says, on a bad day, this is what they would look like. And, and one of the, I mean, this, this was basically my take home message that on a bad day, I'm bland. It actually said bland. So I was like, okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on a podcast and I, I really need to make sure that I, that I, that people catch me on a good day. Otherwise this is gonna be an awful podcast.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:08

Mute. I was muted, so you couldn't hear me laughing, but I love, I love that, I love that. And my kids tell me that of all of their YouTubers that they're, they're, they're, that they're a fan of, I'm their, I am their least favourite. That's, isn't it. Which is just delightful. Yeah. They say, I should be doing videos on Minecraft 'cause they'd be much more popular.

Thomas Gourley (: 20:28

obviously. Yeah, of course.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:31

Yeah.

Thomas Gourley (: 20:32

But that's what the world needs more of.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:34

I think there's a lot of value in the bland as well. I really do

Thomas Gourley (: 20:38

Really, really? okay.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 20:41

not that I'm condoning that you are bland, but what am I like on a bad day? So I guess I would question the bad day aspect of it. So I'm a whole person. You are a whole person, and there will be aspects of me, some of which will be more sociable, some of which will be chattier, some of which need to be left alone and like to be, you know, like to spend time by, by myself. and it's me as a holistic person. So if you catch me on a day where I don't wanna chat, then if I see you in the supermarket, then I will, I probably will hide, you know? because I'm just not in that mood, you know? and sometimes if I've done something really, really social for days and days on end, I just wanna spend a day in bed reading my book.

(: 21:36

But that's not necessarily a bad day that's about nourishing and respecting myself. but yeah, you know, I guess some of the stuff I talk about is bland is boring unless that topic really resonates with you. And over 42,000 people resonated with the topics I've discussed so far. So it can't be super bland. And I think life is not always a rollercoaster adventure, is it? You know, you and I have had 42 years of it. Some, you know, every day at bedtime, my children and I do, I've got a nine year old who will like me to tell you he's almost 10 and a seven year old and every day at bedtime. I'm by no means a perfect parent if people are thinking, oh gosh, she's amazing. 'cause I'm not every day at bedtime with both of them, we do a, what's the favourite part of your day and what's the least favourite part of the day? But they also ask me the same question. And, you know, I get loads of lovely things from them about their favourite and their least favourite. and sometimes my most favourite day is replies, just like, it was just, all right. There wasn't anything particularly good. There wasn't anything particularly bad. It was just a day. And isn't that just adulting really? Sometimes it's a bit vanilla, sometimes it is a bit bland.

Thomas Gourley (: 23:09

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I was also thinking about, I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean there's a lot of plateauing that goes on in life, isn't there between the, the, the bumps and, and the troughs. but I, I actually like when, when you said, oh, maybe it's a good thing, I did actually think, well maybe in terms of like the idea of the, the blank canvas therapist being able to, you know, kind of absorb transference there's maybe something in that. maybe another, another way of looking at it would, would be that, so may maybe, maybe I should be channelling my inner bland during sessions and then I can pick up all, all this transference. So yeah, maybe, maybe it's my secret power, my blandness, but maybe just not as a podcast guest. I dunno,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 24:02

I really don't think you are bland, but I think what's really brilliant about training and what you might well experience for yourself too, is that you are likely to do a variety of different approaches during training. So in my first year I was really into psychodynamic and that sort of, I'd started to pave the way for a psychodynamic placement for placement six. but my latter inter interests were much more probably humanistic. And I've ended up doing C F T. So if I'd been introduced to C F T for anyone listening, it's not sure what that is, that's compassion focused therapy. Earlier in the process, I might well have done something different. But what I really like about training is that you get a chance to try on different hats. So I did solution focused, I did systemic, I did psychodynamic. And you get to see, oh, well what happens when I, when I run therapy sessions in this way?

(: 25:00

And then you get to think about which bits you like, which bits you want to keep, and which bits you want to leave there and never use again. And so, you know, I would empower you to try and really get, I mean, some of it's not within your control but to try and get as, as wide a variety of exposure to different therapeutic orientations on placements as you can. And that might even be when you are on placement, seeking out maybe someone that's not your supervisor to shadow some sessions with and to maybe have some ad hoc supervision sessions with, to get a different understanding of what is likely to be a very similar population within your service. 'cause I've learned so much from people in that way.

Thomas Gourley (: 25:46

Yeah, absolutely agree with that. especially considering trainees are trainees, they are being developed from one, one side to the other. And when they qualify, they're at the beginning of their career as a clinical psychologist. it's not the, the, the doctorate isn't, isn't the end goal. It's, it's the preface of the beginning in, if you want to put it like that. So the idea of being trained in as broad a way as possible is something that really appeals to me. It really appeals to me about the course that I'm, that I'm joining. It's one of the reasons why I applied for it is that they, they offer training in four different models. I'm not quite sure how I feel about cbt plus one on a lot of the courses, given that trainees are not even qualified yet.

(: 26:40

And why you would narrow it down at such an early stage in people's careers. not notwithstanding the fact that you can, you can then qualify and you have a whole career in which to explore different things. But personally I think the course is maybe the, the perfect time to explore those things. And I'm, I've been really lucky in the service that I, that I work in, that I've, I've been able to experience and use adapted versions of different models. which, which has, which has been yeah, I've been terrifically privileged and, and fortunate that I've had that kind of AP role. so for example, for for for one client we used C B T for the formulation stage but then used C F T for the kind of intervention stage. So we kind of, not, not strictly, but and, and adapted versions of, of both things, but we kind of just brought in elements from C F T.

(: 27:47

and I really like, I really like that in sort of integration of different ideas and, and different, different models. Maybe that's how I'd like to develop, but we'll, but we'll see again, in that seven year cycle, I'll probably be completely different to how I'm now. So but yeah, I'm looking forward to exploring that, that broad range. and especially given that, you know, when we think about the therapeutic alliance being the biggest predictor of a positive outcome doesn't exactly render the model or the choice. It doesn't render the choice irrelevant, but it, it does mean that, you know, exploring different models means that you can catch one that really sort of resonates with you and you feel just is a kind of path of least resistance. I can use this, I know it, it feels right, it feels good, I'm good at it. and that gives you maybe more of an opportunity to develop that therapeutic alliance more opportunity to, to have positive outcomes maybe? I dunno.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:50

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've become, and this isn't, yeah, I think let's, let's go back to your earlier point. You are, you are worthy of praise and you are allowed to say good things about yourself, and you are allowed others to say good things about you. So I'm gonna say something good about myself now to model that. I'm a much better clinical psychologist now than I was when I qualified, as we are expected to be. You know, really it's kind of thinking about the first couple of years as being preceptorship and then really you're fully qualified a couple of years later. You know, it's certainly it felt like the case for me. I've become better and better as years have gone on, but I would say that I'm now truly an interpretative psychologist. And what I really love about this stage of my career is that yeah, every client has a different intervention because it's bespoke for them.

(: 29:45

And if something stops working or if something resonates with them in a session, I will literally go, right. Okay. And there might even be a "uh" as I think about that, I touch my mouth, I do, I do do that. and I'll look off to the right and then I'll dig into my therapeutic toolbox. It's like rummaging in an old doctor's bag and I will find something that is gonna be transformative for them. that's just the best job in the world. I love it. Being able to pull across, sometimes it will be an idea from psychodynamic, sometime it will be an idea from systemic. Sometimes it will be something completely random that I've made up for them that will resonate because it's got you know, like an analogy. So I've used recently I've used the idea of, I dunno if you're a gardener, Thomas, dunno if that's yet hit your world, but climbing plants will send out little shoots.

(: 30:56

and I've used that to help somebody understand O C D and to help externalise that to kind of think about it desperately looking for support and reassurance and, you know, so it's not gonna blow over in the wind, but actually it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a lie, you know, o c d it's a whole another episode. But that has been really helpful. and so I'm just excited for where you are going and for this growth explosion you are gonna have, and you, your brain is gonna basically rewire itself, which is also really exciting. You know, we think about that happening in key areas of, you know, adolescence or childhood growing adolescence. but when we also start a new job, we'll suddenly often notice, oh, I can't sleep very well. I'm fizzed up with ideas. My brain is trying to process everything. But it really is an exciting period of change and growth. I'm, I'm really excited for you to experience that, and I hope that you find it to be a really positive experience.

Thomas Gourley (: 32:07

yeah, same. And does it, there's, yeah, I had a lot of thoughts when you, when you're talking through all of that. I mean, I suppose I'm quite committed to the idea of the continuous development. The idea that I'll be a complete finished clinician at any stage isn't really, isn't really my thought. So yeah, in terms of like, keeping my brain ticking over from here, from here on in is, is, is really comforting. It's, I really like it. I've plateaued a lot in my working life. so the idea that there, there may be no more plateaus is, is quite, is quite nice. and I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm definitely up for that. That's, that's also part of the appeal of, of going into clinical psychology and I suppose go going into a science where we're, we're kind of all at the same time.

(: 33:01

We are, we're at the, the absolute limit of our understanding, but we're also already behind where we're going to be. and I, that really appeals to me. I'm quite comfortable. I feel quite comfortable being in that position. And I suppose in my own development, I'm quite comfortable knowing where I am, but knowing also where I might be. 'cause when you're talking about developing after qualification, having the experience to integrate different models, that's, I'm really looking forward to being able to do that. and I've seen it, of course, in more experienced colleagues. and, you know, I do occasionally fanboy a little bit over them. but I also know that if I just keep going, just keep working hard, I get a bit of luck, then I'll, I'll get there as well eventually. so, but I'm, I'm quite comfortable and happy about like, where I am now versus where I was, and then quite excited about where I'm now versus where I I might be And yes, yes, I do llike, I'd also do like gardening as well. I have an allotment.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:09

Good to know. Oh, how lovely. How lovely.

Thomas Gourley (: 34:12

Another forties vibe, I think is burnt orange on an allotment.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:18

What's your most successful produce this year?

Thomas Gourley (: 34:22

Oh gosh. well, this year's been weird because July hasn't happened. Basically, all the, all all the, all the rain has been in the wrong place. The sun has been in the wrong place. the, the, the cold weather was in the wrong place. So goodness knows what it's like to be a a, a plant.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:41

At the moment, the radishes haven't fared well, I believe this year not been enough water at, at key times.

Thomas Gourley (: 34:49

at the moment, I think, so my partner grows flowers, so we have lots of flowers. They're all looking good. so I think maybe beetroot looks okay

Dr Marianne Trent (: 35:01

Oh, nice.

(: 35:04

Good veg, good veggie, good veg update. Thank you. Yeah. I, I, I do think there is value in the plateau though, and we can't keep relentlessly striving all the time because it's exhausting. And sometimes we do need to go to supervision and go, can't be bothered. I can't seem to make any shifts. I can't seem to make any changes, you know, I'm managing my work, but it is what it is, you know, I don't know. And I think you've got to be able to that. But even in supervision sessions, sometimes I will learn so much because we should, I ideally always have a supervisor who's more experienced than ourselves to be able to help contain us, to be able to help shape us and to help us grow and to help us think about being able to overcome things from a different perspective than the one that we are currently feeling a bit trapped in, so that our clients can, can benefit from, you know, the safety, the security, the growth of, you know, of the supervision relationship as well. And I guess I'd welcome your thoughts on that.

Thomas Gourley (: 36:14

yeah, so most of what I say about five minutes after I say it, I reflect and think, oh, it's probably not, that's not, that's not quite right, is it? That's not quite true. so that's, yeah, I'm a chronic ruminator, chronic reflector. so when I said that about no, no more plateaus, I did, I did think, well, yeah, there, there will be. And there's value in the, the plateau with consolidation of what, you know yeah, you can't consolidate if you're constantly learning. so that, I guess there has to be that, that kind of period where it all kind of settles and you become confident in, in what you've learned and what you know. so yeah, sure. yeah, if we're constantly feeling like there's stuff to learn, then we're gonna constantly begin to believe that we don't know anything and we are not enough. So sometimes there has to be that feeling of mastery. Oh yeah, I get this, and this is what I say I've said before on the podcast, is that in a cohort, sometimes you will be so blown away by the experiences that people in your cohort are talking about and the the level of comfortability that they're able to demonstrate for a particular topic. And you'll be like, oh God, I dunno anything about that. And that makes you feel quite squirmy in your tummy. It makes you feel not enough, but actually other times there will be stuff that you have such a rich understanding of and such a sense of mastery in comparison to perhaps what others in the cohort have. And that's what makes clinical psychology really special because you've all got to the start line, but with very different skills, experiences and abilities. And I think that's very, very special.

(: 37:59

Yeah, absolutely. I completely subscribe to the idea that everybody knows something you don't. And that is why no one ever achieves anything completely by themselves in a vacuum. I don't think any human has ever achieved something without any input from someone else.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 38:16

Every supervisor I've ever had, every client I've ever had comes with me to, and teachers and stuff comes with me throughout my career. And it's not just me and my determination, there's a whole host of luck as well that's happened along the way that's got me to being the professional and the person that I am.

Thomas Gourley (: 38:38

Yeah, the, the two supervisors I've had live rent free in my head, definitely. and I've been, I've been really lucky to have two very different supervisors at two very different points in their career. So my, my first super, so I've been, I've been an AP for just, just under two years. so roughly speaking, the first year was with a supervisor of 40 years experience. seen it all, done it all, was very I thought just brilliant, wonderful person and quite psyched, psychodynamically minded. So supervision was very open, freeform, no agenda, no structure. and we would often talk about growing flowers as well. and then my new supervisor was newly qualified on a preceptorship. So part of their training towards Band eight was to have a supervisee. And I was that I was that supervisee. So it was their first experience of being a clinical psychologist, their first supervisor, their, their first role as a supervisor.

(: 39:53

And whereas my first supervisor was approaching retirement my new supervisor just qualified. And although, I dunno how old they are, they are definitely a lot younger than me, maybe 10 ish years younger than me, maybe a little bit more. and that's something that we talked about early on in terms of how I, like, I felt about that, which for the record was absolutely fine. my age doesn't, I, I'm not like I don't feel any kind of ego about my age or any, anything like that. I deferred to their role, their qualification, their level of experience and expertise. but also we talked about how they felt about having a significantly younger supervisor supervisee and even potentially the idea that, that they may never have in the rest of their career a supervisee who is 10 or more years older than them.

(: 40:56

And I guess the older that they get the, the less likely that will be, you know, when they're 50, it's even more unlikely that their supervisee will be in their sixties. so yeah, we, we discussed that and that's, I mean, it hasn't created any barriers I don't think. but it's, I think partly has, maybe, maybe we could talk about age as power in terms of the social grace. because there have been occasions I think where there's been a two-way a two, two-way relationship in terms of learning and maybe even driving particular things. where, where whereby I've kind of felt as a team, we are not doing this and we should be, and I've been the one to kind of lead it. but then again, my, my current supervisor is a believer in kind of collective leadership. so it's also, there's also been that space for me to do that. It's not just simply because I'm older and I'm like, well, I know better. because that just isn't the case.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:04

Yeah. And I think you absolutely can get assertive and great leaders from a young age, but it's something that I've developed as I've aged and my confidence for being able to just observe, stop, think, and suggest and intervene and you know, I'm very much less likely to put up with any kind of social injustice or, you know inequality in the team. Or if I think that something's not happening that should be happening, I'm very much more likely to, to advocate for that now. And I think it's just my age and my experience that has allowed that to happen. But of course, like I said, there are younger people who've, who've got there much quicker than I have. I'm just conscious. for those of you who don't know, I am still a practising clinician, so I've got, I do see a clinical caseload. I'm just conscious of time because I've got a clinical session very shortly. But before we finish, I'd really love to know what your top tips are for reducing burnout in, in this career of ours, Tom.

Thomas Gourley (: 43:05

Oof. so I, I think that partly because of my age and knowing that time passes quite quickly, so there's no need to rush, it's gonna happen. That kind of helps me not have my foot too hard on the pedal to begin with. and they, again, I think through agent experience, that's, that's a skill that I've learned to kind of not throw, throw all of myself in, into something. So that's not to say that I don't throw myself into this career, but I'm maybe, you know, it's maybe like eight out of 10, my foot is eight out of 10 on the pedal. That's a really bad way of putting it. But if you get my meaning because this isn't sustainable. So I guess in reality what that means is well, just referring back to what you said earlier, there are days when I just can't be bothered.

(: 44:11

I love my job, I love my colleagues, I love the clients that I work for. in fact, it's maybe the first, no, it is the first time I've loved my job. And the, and in spite of that, there are still days when I just cannot be bothered. And there are clients that I've struggled to really engage with and engage with the work. so when that happens, it's fine, just sink into it and let it, let it pass and just give yourself a break. And also, when it's time to go home, I go home and at the weekend I don't, I don't think about my job and I don't think about it at night. I guess I have a good work life balance, I suppose that's a really simple way of putting it. but on the Monday morning, I haven't thought about what we talked about on Friday in supervision. It just hasn't crossed my mind. sometimes it does, that's not, it's not black and white, but generally speaking, i, I manage to, to just leave it inside my shut laptop on a Friday. Good. but I dunno how don't know how that's developed really. Maybe

Dr Marianne Trent (: 45:20

Perfect advice. I think it's containment.

Thomas Gourley (: 45:22

Yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 45:23

Containment. It's as, as you grow, you just get better at doing that, I think. And it's really important to develop and cultivate as a skill and to know that you don't not care about your clients 'cause you're not thinking about them, but you deserve to have your life. And the, the two are separate. And I was thinking, I love the analogy about the pedal to the metal. You know, when you are driving with, or even if you're walking past somebody that is doing 10 outta 10 pedal to the metal, it's distressing, it's inconvenient, you know, it makes you go, oh, it's exhausting. And so whilst you might think you need to be relentless all the time, it's really not nice in a team if someone is doing that, you know, and I've absolutely been relentless at points in my career that have probably been quite hard to be around because I'm like, this service needs a shorter waiter list and I'm gonna show you that we're doing it, we're doing it, we're doing it because these clients deserve a better service. And I'm sure that was difficult for my colleagues at times because I was like, productivity, it's accountability. 50% face-to-face. You know, I can do it. We can all do it. Let's get it done. Let's get these clients from a better experience. But if you do that all the time, you are not gonna be very well liked and you're gonna burn out and, you know, ultimately you're not gonna be any use to the service or the clients that you so badly want to support.

Thomas Gourley (: 46:37

Yeah, absolutely. I suppose to complete the analogy, you know, the, the more revs you use, the more petrol you burn.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 46:45

Oh, you certainly do. And on that note, Tom, I'm really sorry, I'm gonna have to go, but it's been the biggest pleasure speaking with you and wishing you so well for these next three years and beyond. And if you wanna come back on the podcast at any stage, give me a shout and you know, I'm here for you. If you need any containment or advice feel free to slip into my dms.

Thomas Gourley (: 47:09

Thanks. thanks for having me, Marianne. It's been a, a privilege to come on and, and just, just chat randomly and thank you to everyone who's listened. I hope it wasn't bland.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 47:23

It was not bland, it was vibrant and burnt orange and may your beetroots flourish.

Thomas Gourley (: 47:29

Yes, exactly. What a great note to finish on

Dr Marianne Trent (: 47:33

Thank you so much. Gosh, what an absolute pleasure to speak with Thomas and I really wish him all the best with these next coming months and years. You'll be pleased to know I did make my client session on time. But yeah, I really am a practising clinician. I hold a clinical caseload as well as running all of these bits and pieces for you guys in the Aspiring Psychologist community. And if you would like to come closer into my world, do check out the details for the Aspiring Psychologist membership, which you can find in the show notes or in the description or in the bio link, any of my social channels, I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, everywhere. Come and find me. Come and follow me. Come and connect with me and let me know what content it is that you would really value and I will look forward to offering that to you.

(: 48:25

Don't forget, we've got compassionate Q&A dates coming up for the application season. The first of those is on Monday, the 4th of September, 2023 at 6:00 PM The second of those is Tuesday the 3rd of October, 2023 at 6:00 PM The third is Tuesday the 7th of November, 2023 at 6:00 PM They're all available for free streamed via my social channels and will be available on replay as well. The best place to catch the replay is on Dr. Marianne Trent YouTube. Come and follow me there, come and subscribe. And you can also check out my previous playlist there too. Anyway, thank you so much for listening to this episode or watching it depending on what you are doing. And I will look forward to providing more great content for you when we next get together, which will be from 6:00 AM on Monday for the next episode of the Aspiring Psychology Podcast. Thank you so much for being part of my world. And do be kind to yourself. Take care.