How to Reduce Suicide in Men - Male Mental Health

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

74% of all suicides in the UK are men. But why is this happening? And more importantly, what can we do to change it? In this very special magazine style episode, I am joined by three people who can talk with us and help educate us about three very high risk areas for men. The first is Lee, an ex-Marine, who now works in the building trade. Our next is Sharon, a researcher and farmer's wife who has a really good overview of farming life and farming community. And last but not least, I'm joined by Charlie, the CEO of Men's Sheds uk, whose organisation is all about transforming lives by giving men a safe space to get connected, feel supported, and build meaningful connections. This episode is more than just about understanding the problem. It's about finding real, practical, workable solutions for reducing suicidality in men. Whether you are directly affected or looking to support someone who is, I hope that you find this to be a crucially important conversation.

(: 01:08

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Now in the UK, it is more common for women to be diagnosed with depression, and yet, of course, as our intro revealed, it is men who are higher in the suicide rates. With 74% of suicides in the UK in 2022 being males, it's often discussed that there are certain industries that do seem to have a higher rate of suicides. So I really wanted to use this space to explore that, to empower you, to help you think about questions, to ask people that may be around you. And I think this is really important because sometimes we might feel like we don't have the necessary knowledge, we don't know what to say, we don't want to say the wrong thing. So by watching this, hopefully this will help you feel like you are enough and you know enough to point somebody in the right direction and to instil a sense of hope.

(: 02:12

You may notice as this episode progresses, there's various different stages of Marianne because it's been recorded across the summer. One point I have a mole, then I have a bandage on my face. Now I've got a wound stick with it and you'll get the flow of what was recorded when these are really important conversations to have, and I wanted to get our experts booked in and get these interviews recorded. I've previously chatted to Lee, not on the podcast, but in a social media conversation around about the pandemic time. He is so brilliant and inspiring. I love chatting with Lee. So let's dive in. Let's meet him, and I will catch you on the other side of this. Hi Lee, welcome along to the podcast.

Lee Stuart (: 02:58

Thanks having me, Marianne, I appreciate it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:01

Thank you. I always love speaking with you. And since we last spoke, you've had a change of your business. You're previously working in fitness and you from an ex-military background, but you are now working in quite a different area. You've really taken control and you're doing something very different now, aren't you? What are you doing now?

Lee Stuart (: 03:24

Yeah, well basically I went from being a royal marine to owning a bootcamp fitness business. Covid sort of saw the end of that, a bit of a long story, but yeah, COVID was the end of the fitness business and I now find myself operating a mini crane installing steel beams for builders on building sites every day. So yeah, a bit of a contrast from what I was doing before.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:51

Very different. But I know from following you on socials and from our chat beforehand, this is really invigorating for you. You are really enjoying it and you are a father, you are a husband, and this is really helping to help you do all the things you love to provide for your family, but also your own mental health.

Lee Stuart (: 04:09

Yeah, that's it. Exactly. When the fitness business came to an end, as you know, it's a bit of a long story. I know we're limited for time. I'm sorry, won't go into it too much. But yeah, I've always been conscious of my mental health. I had a few issues to say the least when I was a bit younger. So since then I've always been really keen to prioritise my mental health. And I understand that your job, what you do for a living, what you get up out of bed and go and do for eight hours a day, nine hours, sometimes more, can have a massive impact on your mental health. If you don't enjoy what you are doing, it can impact your mood and your energy and you go home, you take that mood, that energy home with you, it then starts to impact your relationship, your parenting, your diet, and then all this, a bit of a snowball effect.

(: 05:04

And it can be obviously detrimental to say the least. So yeah, when I was looking for something to do after my fitness business, I gave it a huge amount of thought. And to be honest, that was one of the main sort of priorities really is or was finding something that I thought I'd be happy doing. I'd enjoyed doing so that I took home at the end of each working day, a positive energy into my house. As you mentioned, I'm married, I've got a lovely wife, I've got four beautiful little kids, and I didn't want to come home in a foul mood and let that foul mood affect everybody else. It's just something that to me is super, super important.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:48

Yeah, I think what I love about what you've done is that you've demonstrated that actually you can do a career change at whatever stage of your life. I know that you had young twins at the time when this was happening as well, and you were like, well, this is the right time for me and this is going to be giving me the chance to live my authentic self in my family and to have the kids grow up with a happy dad. Really? Yeah,

Lee Stuart (: 06:14

But that's important to me. Don't get me wrong. I love my dad to bits. He was a brilliant dad and he worked so, so hard to provide for me and my sister and put a roof over our heads, put food on the table. But I knew, I didn't know at the time, but looking back, I understand he was under a lot of pressure. He didn't particularly enjoy what he was doing. For example, my dad, he used to work in a factory all day and he used to say that in the winter he didn't see sunlight. He'd get up really early in the morning, go to the factory, work all day, do overtime. By the time he'd come out, he was pitched black again. He hadn't seen the sunlight all day. And he'd come home and he'd start fixing cars. He was good with cars, and I remember him, he'd be lying in our back entry at home in the snow on his back underneath the car, welding cars.

(: 07:05

And he was brilliant in that respect. But at the same time, not all the time, sometimes it didn't take much to set him off. He'd lose his temper, start shouting and swearing and banging the table and all the rest of it. And I want to be keen, I'm keen not to sound like I'm bad mouthing my dad. I I'm not because I understand what pressure is under getting up and doing something that you hate all day coming home and lining the snow welding cars. I can understand why he used to lose his temper a bit sometimes, but I was just keen to, as a father now myself, not to repeat that pattern,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 07:47

Basically

Lee Stuart (: 07:48

Come home every

Dr Marianne Trent (: 07:49

Day. Absolutely. It really reduces your window of tolerance when you are not vibing of what you're doing. I don't think I'm young enough or cool enough to say vibing, but there you go. I've gone for it. I've said it really does change your outlook and it changes your capacity to do all of your roles, all of your responsibilities, but also to just do you.

Lee Stuart (: 08:11

Yeah, that's it. You can't do something that you hate all day and then come home to your family and be all happy and cheery and play with the kids and have some banter with your wife and read stories and out at bedtime. You can't do all that stuff if you just come home miserable and you want to just open a beer and a bag of crisps and sit on the sofa and a binge watch YouTube videos or whatever. If you do something you quite enjoy all day, you come home, you're in a positive mood and you're ready to be that husband and you're ready to be that father that I aspire to be. And probably a lot of men aspire to be, but they find it difficult because they're slugging away at something they don't particularly enjoy all day.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:55

Well done to you. I'm so pleased that you found that and that you are achieving that for your family with your experiences of the building trade. I'm very aware that there's a very high demographic, it's not a very nice term, but of high suicide rates in the building trade. And I'm also aware that within that there'd be a wide spectrum of people from jobbing 16, 17 year olds learning trade and doing bricklaying and scaffolding apprenticeships and stuff right up to company owners. This is a big scope of people that we are discussing here. What's your take on why the rates for suicide are so high in this industry? Lee,

Lee Stuart (: 09:42

I've got to be honest, Marianne, I was actually shocked when I found this out because I entered the construction industry. I wouldn't call myself a tradesman because I just basically operate a crane at the end of the day and instal steel beams, but I'm still in the construction industry and I entered it because I thought it would be good for my mental health and it actually is. I love it. I'm outside all day, I'm getting plenty of sunlight. It's physical what I do, so I'm getting a form of exercise. I'm with the lads all day. I don't want to be politically incorrect, but I just love working in a male dominated environment.

(: 10:26

It's a little bit dangerous. You have to stay switched on, otherwise potentially I could get hurt or somebody else could get hurt. So when I decided to take this route, I thought to myself, when was the happiest time of my life? And it was when I was in the rural Marines. So I thought, okay, when I was in the Marines, what was it that made me happy? And like I said, it was being outside, it was doing physical stuff, dangerous stuff, having to stay switched on, being with the lads, having a bit of banter and good laugh and taking the mickey out of each other and all that kind of thing. So that's why I joined the construction industry. So I thought it'd be very, very similar and I'm loving it. But since we spoke the other week, and then somebody else actually mentioned to me that the construction industry has a high suicide rate, I just got trying to think why is that? Why is it I'm loving it? And don't get me wrong, a lot of the builders are speak to, they say, they say they love it, say they enjoy it. So I know obviously it can be enjoyed.

(: 11:29

But yeah, given it some thought, I've come up with a few things. The first thing that occurred to me is perhaps that what I do is very, very varied. I go to a different building site every day, meet a different bunch of lads. I've got a different problem or a different set of problems to overcome. I'm travelling all over the Midlands and the northwest, so I'm seeing a bit of the country. I'm driving around meeting different people. And maybe if you haven't got that variety, if you'll just turn up on a building site every day and laying a thousand bricks, you go home, go to bed, get up the next day, go back to the same building site, laying another a thousand bricks, and that's your life week in, week out, just laying perhaps a lack of variety. And I'm just using the bricks as an example.

(: 12:17

I'm sure there's other areas of the building industry where there is that lack of variety. So that was the first thing that came to my head. Second thing I've noticed is on a lot of building sites I go to, and I'm not trying to be judgmental here, but their diet is atrocious. It's all Greg's. I dunno if I'm allowed to name names, sorry if I'm not allowed to name names. But it's basically fast food, junk food, bags of crisp bottles of pot, et cetera, et cetera. And I think a lot of people don't understand the relationship between the food that we eat, sugars refine carbohydrates or the chemicals, but they put in processed food these days. A lot of people don't understand the link between that and their mental health. So I think a lot of builders would probably benefit from cleaning their diet up.

(: 13:17

Obviously there's a bit of a drinking culture. A lot of builders, they'll go for a few beers on the way home or they spend all weekend having a few beers drinking basically. And as you know, obviously alcohol is a depressant, doesn't do you any good from a mental point of view. So if you are combining all this, oh, and another thing I've thought about as well is status. I found a little bit that if you basically are walking around in a suit, you've got a laptop case, like a briefcase for example, or perhaps when I was a PT in a track suit or a vest, I was looking in shape.

(: 14:03

People look at you differently. Whereas if you've got work boots on and you're covered in mud and you soak in wet and you've got all muck all over your face and your ears everywhere, I dunno, there's, I don't what the word is. I dunno if stigma is the right word, but I think some people in society can sort of lock down on workman on tradesmen. I remember at school, or somebody said to me the other day actually, that when they're at school, the teachers used to say, if you don't try hard, you'll end up working on a building site. And there's that sort of, so I dunno, some lads in the trades feel like they lack a bit of status in society. I dunno if this is, I'm not trying to offend anybody, I'm just trying to throw things there. I

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:54

Think you're right. I can remember that sort of being said and threatened and around. And maybe what we know is that perhaps people that do find formal education more tricky, I'm more likely to end up in hands-on manual labour professions. And so maybe there are more people that are perhaps struggling with some of the interfacing of modern life and keeping up with everybody else and the shame and stigma. Maybe people are ending up in the building trade who didn't thrive in school or didn't find it the easiest or weren't supported optimally to overcome dyslexia to think about a DH, D, all of those kind of different things that make engaging in education trickier.

Lee Stuart (: 15:44

Yeah, I'd just like to say this point, I think there's a massive difference between academic intelligence, people that can read books and sort of memorise it and regurgitate it or even understand it. Hopefully there's a big difference between academic intelligence and practical intelligence and common sense. I work on some building sites and you can tell that there are very, very good builder and some of the things I see them come up with to overcome problems to get these steel beams in and all their work is immaculate. They've got really neat, tidy, clean site and you can just tell that they're very, very proud of their professional capabilities. And I can almost guarantee a lot of these lads that are fantastic builders, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, all these kinds of people, they're very, very skilled and a lot of the work they do is dangerous and it's hard work and it's in unpleasant conditions oftentimes you cold them wet.

(: 16:43

And when I think back on the attitudes of these guys when I was at school by the teachers, not all of 'em obviously, but some of the teachers and the way some, like I say sometimes society locked down on tradesmen. The work some of these guys do in like I say, unpleasant conditions, hard graft, I take my hat off to 'em and I think a lot of tradesmen should recognise the contribution that they make to society. Where would we be without these guys? They build their houses, they fix our houses, they fix our roofs, anything start any pipes, start leaking, your lights go out, these guys will come out and they fix it for you. And I think they need to give themselves a pat on the back for that and understand they do a lot of things that these more academic people couldn't do either, couldn't do or wouldn't want to do. And

Dr Marianne Trent (: 17:38

And today we've had someone out to look at our guttering. So exactly, exactly that. And my husband was like, I could do it. It is got to the stage where he's going to be 49 and he is like, it's going to be really hard for me to do that. I think we should get someone in. I was like, yeah, I totally support that. I think you're right.

Lee Stuart (: 18:02

Yeah, these guys fulfil a vital role. We'd be absolutely, we'd be lost without 'em and they need to give themselves some credit for that. It's just a different type of intelligence and aptitude and common sense. And some of the lads, like I say, blow my mind some of the things they come up with, the problem solving, the abilities and the pride they're taking, the work and the things they construct is fantastic. And

Dr Marianne Trent (: 18:33

I think you could be the difference that makes a difference here, Lee. I feel like more sites need to be run by compassionate leaders like you are. And you would be pointing out, actually, I can see that you struggle with X, Y, Z, but this is incredible. You should be really proud of this and just try and help lift people up and see themselves as an asset, as doing good things, not of perhaps looking at a deficit, looking at things they can't do.

Lee Stuart (: 19:04

Yeah, yeah, that's it. So if you got the lads and they started understanding how valuable they are and what skill sets they've got and understanding that's actually they're a massive credit to society. If you change their mindset in that respect. And if they clean the diets up a little bit and maybe cut down on the boozing and maybe did a bit of exercise or what was the other thing I mentioned? Yeah, maybe added a little bit of variety. If thought, I do get a bit bored laying these bricks, or I do get a bit bored doing this or that, how can I add a little bit more variety into my job? Then perhaps like I say those things either individually or combined could improve their mental health and maybe do something about the suicide rate. I don't know.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:55

Yeah, amazing. I love those ideas. And actually if anyone's listening to this and thinking, well, I've got a builder coming into clinic next week, these are really good examples to be able to discuss with them, but also really empowering them to think about, well, if we could make a change, what would that look like? What would be enough if you woke up tomorrow and you didn't feel like this, what would need to have changed? And it might be that they're kind of drawing on what you've said, actually this site, this job that I've been in for five years, it's not igniting me. They might then come with a problem focused narrative of I can't change my job because I'm 10 years away from retirement or I won't find another job or no one else will want me. Or I've only ended up in this job because I came in from school and challenge that. I know that we can pigeonhole ourselves, but just I believe in infinite possibility for change and rehabilitation and that we can live successful, happy, fulfilling lives. And I know you feel the same

Lee Stuart (: 21:03

Way. Yeah, definitely. Well, like I said, I do try and talk to the lads when I'm on site and I do say to how long you been a builder love themselves since I left school. I say, do you enjoy it? And like I say, a lot of 'em, I'd say even most of them say, yeah, I love it. Now you've got to bear in mind some of 'em might be lying. A lot of people will just say, yeah, I love it. Even if they don't, but some of them do say, I hate it, I can't. But I say, well, why'd you keep doing it and why didn't you do something else? I go, I couldn't do anything else. I've done this since I left school. I don't feel at that point, I don't feel like it's my place to try and coach them or lecture them or try and talk. It's not my place really. I don't think in that environment to try and help them or try and instigate a career change. I'm there to instal the steel beam and work to get a life.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 22:00

Yeah, I hear you. But I guess what you're saying is that they haven't necessarily experienced an upbringing where they realise that you can be really, really happy in your job and love it and sing about it almost perhaps if they've been raised in an environment like you were where your dad actually didn't really like his job and he wasn't fulfilled by it and then he kind of had to live for the weekends, really. And if other people on building sites have had that experience and then go on to have the same experience themselves, they kind of develop that belief that this is just what work is and it's all just kind of

Lee Stuart (: 22:36

Drudgery

Dr Marianne Trent (: 22:37

Really until you retire or die. And that's not particularly hope filling, is it?

Lee Stuart (: 22:43

No, that's it. I think, I hope you'll agree and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think to have good mental health, I think part of it is optimism. You need to be able to look at the next six months, the next five years, the next 10 years, the next 20 or 30 years with a sense of optimism. You need to be looking forward to your future. Whereas all you can see in your future is getting up every day and going to something that you hate. Obviously common sense dictates that isn't good for your mental health, just looking forward and not wanting to do it. I've gone from marine to fitness, business owner to crane hire business owner, and if anyone's listening to this and it resonates, I just have a look at me. I've just gone from one thing, made an extreme move to another and then I've done it again. I've done it with babies at home, very young children, four very young children, bills and mortgage to pay and all the rest of it.

(: 23:47

And I'm not saying it's easy, it's, it's actually very, very hard. It's risky. You lose a lot of sleep, your anxiety levels will go up. It's a difficult transition. But in my opinion, I've been going 18 months and it's only just really in the last maybe four or five months starting to get established and my stress and anxiety levels have started to come down. I've just had to put a lot of hard work into it. Like I say, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of anxiety when things were a bit tight. But you've just got to think to yourself, do I want to do something that I hate for the next 10, 20, 30 years or do I want to have a bit confidence in myself, take a few risks and maybe go through a bit of a stressful year or two, transition into something else that I'll enjoy, hopefully enjoy, and just weighing it all up and maybe being inspired to make the decision to go for it for the benefit of your own mental health, your own happiness, but also the sake of your marriage, your kids and you wider relationships and just on.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:04

Absolutely. And people don't have to do this alone. They can try and get financial backing as well. You like speak to bank managers, put a case forward to really put a business plan together for this and how you're going to earn that money and in the process make yourself so much happier. Thank you so much, Lee. I've loved speaking with you and I think these are really, really interesting points and I hope this will inspire people working in mental health, but also those who might be listening to this who are thinking, oh, that's me. I didn't realise I was supposed to be happy in work. Where can people connect with you? What's your Instagram?

Lee Stuart (: 25:47

Yeah, on Instagram, I'm steel beam lifter Instagram is stieel beam lifter, Midlands and northwest. It might be still beam lifter, mid and northwest. Great.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:57

I'll make sure it's on screen on YouTube and that it's in the show notes. Honestly, I've loved speaking with you, Lee, it's been a real privilege and thank you for taking the time out of your evening to do this. I know time is so precious.

Lee Stuart (: 26:09

You're more than welcome. And yeah, thanks again for asking me on.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 26:13

Thank you. Oh, how great is Lee. Honestly, chatting with him was a real pleasure and I find it so uplifting and thanks again to him for taking the time out to speak with me after his busy day at work. So we're already getting an idea of what some other problems might be and how it can make you feel quite stuck, actually quite downtrodden, quite entrenched, and how it might begin to feel like there's not much hope. I have to confess that I absolutely love this series on Amazon called Clarkson's Farm. Now, in case you are not a Jeremy Clarkson's fan, perhaps don't be put off at this stage because it's honestly one of the favourite series of mine that I've ever watched. I found it so interesting having a closer look at farming and the farming community and the things that crop up within it. But of course what we know is that farmers and people working in the farming industry are also reported to have higher than average suicide rates. Why could this be? I reached out to Sharon May who is a trained counsellor and has done an MSC recently looking into farming and mental health. Let's take a closer look for some of the themes and debates and common issues and perspectives that might come up in this area. Hi, just want to welcome along Sharon May to the podcast. Hi Sharon.

Sharon May (: 27:44

Hi. How you doing?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:45

Really well, thank you. Thanks for asking. How are you feeling now that you've handed in your research for your masters?

Sharon May (: 27:54

A big sense of relief? I don't think it's quite hit me yet. There's always that niggly thought that there's something else I should be doing, but I'll get used to it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:02

Yes, yes, absolutely. And the nature of being an academic is that you might well start studying sooner than you imagined. Yeah. So obviously, I hope it's okay to say that you are immersed in farming yourself. You married into a farming community and a farming family, and you have now done research looking at what it's like to be a farmer's wife. Could you tell us a little bit, set the context really for why mental health is even a conversation in farming, if that's okay?

Sharon May (: 28:34

Yeah, sure. I mean, it's often touted as a statistic that the suicide rates for those in farming are much higher than general population, and it's one of the occupations with the highest suicide rates. Unfortunately, I think the research into Y has accelerated massively in recent years, which it's needed to do. There's so many contributing factors to why agriculture takes such a strain on mental health. But I think the interesting thing is that it doesn't just affect the principal farmer. It has a ripple effect into those around partners, families, that sort of thing as well, because the nature of it is that it's a family business very often, so it affects more than that one person, but that one person is the linchpin for a lot of the pressure, I think.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 29:27

Thank you. And yeah, I'm sort of racking my brains a little bit, thinking about some of my learning for this during my career and remembering some theories that maybe it's not necessarily about number of people attempting to end their own life, but it's about the people that manage to do that. And actually in farming populations, people have got access to perhaps more space, more seclusion and more kind of violent means. Is that still a current theme?

Sharon May (: 30:00

It is an interesting question to ask because I think a lot of people put it down to, oh, it's got a high rate of suicide because of the access to lethal means, particularly firearms and things like that. Unfortunately, it just means that those who attempt tend to complete, I think suicide statistics in their own are an interesting measurable way of assessing mental health in an industry. But they don't take into account those who don't attempt suicide or those who have thought about suicide but haven't attempted it, and they don't take into account all those people who are struggling on a day-to-day basis with mental health issues. So whilst there is an interesting statistic to use to illustrate the prevalence of mental health in farming, I think it is just the tip of a very large iceberg to be fair.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 30:53

Yeah, I agree. And I think thinking back on everybody I've ever assessed, really, it's very rare that someone hasn't told me that either attempted to end their own life or certainly been very close to it. And of course I'm a skewed population because I'm a qualified clinical psychologist having worked in trauma services. But I think this is endemic, and I guess we're talking specifically about men today. Even for a man to be in a service, seeing a therapist and turning up regularly is kind of hard. And I guess that's even harder in farming where we're putting barriers in place if we're asking people to come into clinic, don't wear your wellies, don't be too smelly, all of that stuff. But also how do you get cover to do that? How do you begin to tell people maybe, maybe you're just a lone farmer. How do you begin to have the space to do that, Sharon?

Sharon May (: 31:50

I think one of the biggest barriers to help seeking when farmers are struggling with their mental health is that self stigmatisation generalising massively. But they're a practical, logical person and they used to be able to fix things. If something's broken, they find a way to fix it, even if it's a bot job, they tie it up with a piece of baine until it works. Emotional stuff doesn't work like that. And I think they find that really destabilising and see that as a bit of a failure. It's not helped by the masculine stereotypes that go along with farming as with a lot of other masculine based industries. And then you've got the work ethic that is born from necessity but becomes a bit of a badge of honour. I haven't taken a day off the farm in six years plus the practicalities of not being able to step away at certain times of year or certain times of the day, that sort of thing.

(: 32:53

So there's a lot of things in the way before someone can say I need help, primarily missing it to themselves, then emitting it to other people, then actually seeking the professional services that they might need. Geographic isolation always used to be a big factor because literally stepping off the farm, if it's done anything, has proved that actually you can do a lot of that from the comfort of your own home. But still, then there's the element of privacy. Your home is your workplace, your workplace is your home. And there's a lot of things that just generally get in the way of being able to take that step forward, I think.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 33:34

Yeah, absolutely. And I have to confess, I might be profess, I'm not sure to being a big fan of Clarkson's farm and that feels like it's illuminated some areas I'd never considered even the maths element of how can we get profit out of this when there's actually very, very hard, the margins are so reliant upon the seasons, but also are caught upon government subsidies as well. And whether things are changing almost by the minute it seems.

Sharon May (: 34:06

I think farming is a difficult one because because a farm is a home and a home and a farm that you are caught at both ends. You're a producer and a consumer. So when economically things start to squeeze, the cost of living goes up, but you're also getting less margin for your product. The supermarkets, the big sellers are paying less for what they get from their producers and charging more to their customers. And a farmer or a farming family gets stung twice in that. So economically it's very difficult. Then you've got things like global events, the war in Ukraine affecting fertiliser prices, fuel prices, that sort of thing. So their costs of production are going up too, as well as the amount they're getting for their product. So financially, it's a really, really tough place to be. And then there's so much out of your control in terms of the weather.

(: 35:01

The weather can absolutely scuff you. There's animal disease, avian flu has been in the news a lot recently, tb, that sort of thing. And all these things that are nothing you have any control over can scupper an already very tight place that you find yourself in. And I think the pressures of that were highlighted by Jeremy Clarkson. I think a lot of people came up to us after that first series in particular and said, oh, we just had no idea. And I think that's part of it too. Some farmers are afraid of, well, not afraid, that's probably not the word, worried about talking to people. They just don't get it. There's that cultural isolation too. There's a feeling that the professionals they might talk to might not get the pressures of their job or understand the situation that they're in. And I think that also creates a bit of a gap.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 35:55

Absolutely. And if people listening or watching to this are thinking about how they could be a better friend or a better family member to someone in farming or a better clinician if they're working with farmers or wanting to engage farmers, what's the one topic they can do? Sharon,

Sharon May (: 36:15

That's a big question. I think it's difficult because not many people know a farmer. Not many people can go and hug a farmer. It doesn't work like that, but those that do check in. But I think as consumers, we have a responsibility to be more careful about the choices we make in order to support an industry that is on its bottom, so to speak at the moment. And I think as professionals, flexibility is a big thing, which for those of us who are used to working in sort of regular weekly slots at certain times, that sort of thing, it is being open to working in a slightly different way. And the same that you would, I dunno, with shift workers, that sort of stuff to kind of go into it with an open mind about there's a certain amount of mistrust between farmers and health professionals sometimes.

(: 37:18

Because historically there hasn't been that understanding of their industry in physical health as well as mental health. So as a practitioner going into that sort of with a bit of an open mind, knowing that that trust really has to be established. I mean it does with all relationships, but particularly with that one, I think it's probably shaky to start with. And a farmer turns up asking for mental health support. They really need mental health support. There's anecdotal evidence that if a pharma turns up in a and e, he's probably really injured taking him seriously or he is really sick. And I think it's the same with mental health too.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 37:56

Absolutely. And thinking about whether we can prioritise as key worker accordingly in our services. And I think another thing that Clarkson's Farm has done quite well is highlight there's real joy possible in farming as well. And actually those still moments, the moments where you're just at one with nature, it really does show us the appeals of farming, doesn't it?

Sharon May (: 38:25

I think that's really true. I mean, most people are in farming, they have an affinity for it because they love the lifestyle, they love the job, they love the animals. And if you were talking to a member of a public who was suffering with depression, you'd tell them to get out in nature, get some fresh air, do something physical, all these things that like farming, tick, tick, tick. But it's almost like the pressure of the other stuff. It's preventing that from happening. It should be a wholesome, engaging lifestyle. But the external pressures are such that at the moment it's very hard to enjoy it. You do get those bits in between for sure. And that's why those who still farm, still farm.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:10

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your time today, Sharon. I think this has illuminated some really important considerations for people who might be working with farmers or would like to work with farmers. Thank you so much for your time.

Sharon May (: 39:25

You are welcome. It's been a pleasure.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:28

Thank you. Thank you so much to Sharon for your time and for illuminating us into this area that's so important. If you are in farming yourself or if you're working in mental health, hopefully that gives you some interesting insight and some ways to help think about making mental health care accessible to all. But we're already beginning to piece together a narrative that actually it's tricky to get men through the door of a traditional mental health service. And so that's why I really wanted to think about what is our there that could be the difference that is making the difference or could be the difference that makes the difference. I chatted with Charlie Bethel, the CEO of Men's Sheds uk thinking about how his organisation can be and is becoming a difference that can make the difference for men. Hi Charlie. Welcome along to the podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me.

Charlie Bethel (: 40:31

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:33

Tell us a little bit about Men's Sheds and why that is so powerful.

Charlie Bethel (: 40:40

So men's sheds are safe spaces for men and it's somewhere where men can go to create or to connect or to just communicate, just talk as I say. And the majority of men's sheds are woodworking shops, but they'll do metal work, they'll do 3D printing, they'll do all sorts of things. And then we've got some sheds that just play music and we've got a shed that is a chicken shed. So the group of men there will go and look after chickens. The use of men is a little bit, it's not necessarily completely fair because a number of sheds now have women, but generally there's always a men's only session, and it's that piece that really works it's magic on the men that go to 'em. And then there may be mixed sessions or women only sessions as well, and there are women only sheds, but we keep men in the title because we're there for men's health and our vision is healthier and happier men,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:44

Which has a knock-on effect for society as well for the families and the friends around these men.

Charlie Bethel (: 41:52

It does. And many people that come to the shed come because if their wife has taken them down to the shed or their daughters have said they should go to the shed. And there was one occasion not so long ago where shed in Redding had a wife come down, drag the husband and say, I'm going shopping. You are not leaving until you've signed up. And that's very often what happens. And the analogy we use is that if you put 12 men in a square room, which is quite important that it's square and ask them to talk about their feelings, six will leave immediately and the other six will try to find the corners of the room And being men, we can't work out that six doesn't go into four. However, if you put a lawnmower in the room and say Fix it after two hours, they will know each other intimately because they will work shoulder to shoulder, they'll talk, they'll know the names of their children, their grandchildren, what ails them.

(: 42:42

And it has further impact not only from a mental health perspective, but also from a physical health perspective. And there's lots of examples where sheds have not ganged up on somebody but subtly convinced them to go to the doctors and sort out an ailment. And it's really seen blind people see there's been some people that have lost their sight and actually going to the shed has made them then go to the doctors and resolve those problems. And there are a number of stats we can give you on suicide or on anxiety and depression that it's better than any pill you can get on the NHS.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 43:23

Yeah, it's the inclusion, isn't it? And the being seen and being part of something and feeling heard and feeling like you matter. And so much of what we know about depression can be the opposite of that.

Charlie Bethel (: 43:38

And it is the sense of purpose. So you go to a shed to make something for yourself, you go to the shed to make something for your family or for friends. And then because you can be on your own in the shed, you don't have to be working with the other sheds. But then there's that sense of purpose when you are making things for the local train station or local school. One shed recently made 17 or recently last year, made 17 xylophones for school. There's no Glock and spiels. I always get that wrong. Apparently they're different, unfortunately for the children, they then played them to them. But it's just that sense of pride that it gives them and that sense of purpose, which is really important. And I think that when people talk about Maslow's hierarchy, that sense of purpose should be in there front and centre because it makes all the difference.

(: 44:32

And we have people say to us, I had a choice. Go to the men's shed or die by sofa. And it genuinely is that. And there was one guy from Red Car, this was in the newspaper, and you've got to bear in mind, we're talking about men here. So them actually opening up and telling these stories afterwards is a huge step and shows how safe they feel. One guy was going to the sea to end his life, and on the way there, he bumped into somebody who started talking to him about the men's shed, was really enthusiastic, didn't know why this guy was walking down this path. The guy turned around, went to see the shed with him, and he hasn't gone back since. And we hear that story time and time again, and it is about that safe environment. It might take somebody five, six times to walk through the door of a shed.

(: 45:21

It's like the casing out the joint. But when they do come through, they find a very noninvasive non questioning culture and environment where they can thrive. And as I say that, there are plenty of stories. We did a survey this 1,180 sheds across the UK at the moment, and we did a survey asking a number of questions around health and wellbeing. And one was, do you believe your shed has saved a life? And 25% said yes, there was 178 replies. So quite a reasonable chunk. 25% said yes, and 14% said, yes, we believe so. And some of those 25% said, and that includes me. And that wasn't a question of that. You might've felt that way later on to end your life. It was direct, yes, this has saved my life. And if a shed has done one thing and it's done that then the whole movement's been worthwhile.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 46:20

Absolutely. It's incredibly powerful stuff. And to get those real case study examples, obviously it's just life changing for people. Does it matter if somebody's never picked up a sore or a chisel or a spanner in their life

Charlie Bethel (: 46:37

Only for their fingers? No, it doesn't matter. Many people that go to sheds won't have done anything before. So shed leader will have done because they just keep a bit of oversight of what's going on. Open the door. Most sheds, if not all, will do some vetting first in terms of, do you know to use this machine? Right. Okay, well, let me show you how to do it and put people through and sign them off on machinery and equipment. The most dangerous tool in a workshop is probably the Stanley knife. But no, the schedule will start off with simple projects for people if they've never done anything before. And so bird boxes, if the wi is jam and Jerusalem, men's sheds are bird boxes and tea.

(: 47:24

There are lots of bird boxes made, but there's lots of wood turning. It's turn a bowl, it's a red, it's a relatively easy thing to learn. And there are different techniques for people at different levels. And if your hand grip isn't as strong, you can use the other devices you can use. And some people just go and just have a cup of tea in the shed. They don't actually engage in anything, but they engage in the community. So yeah, no, it doesn't matter. I mean, at the other end, well, sorry, I should say the first she I ever went to see, there was a lady in there making a bird table, and the nails that were sticking out of this bird table would've impaled a robin from a hundred yards. And it was frighten, and my degree was designed. So I'm looking at it thinking, do I really want to come and work somewhere like this or for a charity like this?

(: 48:13

But the joy that she had and the joy that the other shed has had, seeing her create that was just immeasurable. I mean, that was fantastic. And then at the other end of the scale, you see people making freezes for the backs of churches. So wooden carvings. And you see the most incredible pieces of art and design that are created and trains for Father Christmas slays when he lands and he has to go around the local streets that they create those. For him, it's a huge range of things that they can create, but you start one nail at a time. There's only one person I've seen in the shed not be able to use at Tool. And it'd probably be too political for me to say that that was the former Prime Minister visiting one. But yeah, no, the Sheds really do help bring all other people. It's a non-competitive environment. They leave egos at the door generally,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 49:12

And there's scope for everybody. Even if you don't get on very well the first time, we can all grow. We can all develop new skills.

Charlie Bethel (: 49:20

And it's different to say, art. I remember this one of our funders saying to me, telling me off, because I said, know what? It's not too dissimilar to art classes. And she said, no, no, no, no, no. In an art class, you might be sat next to Constable or next to Pablo Picasso that would dishearten you in a shed. You can just be sanding down the wood and get the satisfaction of it. So she was one of our very many advocates in Seattle wrapped

Dr Marianne Trent (: 49:46

Amazing. And are they all free for people to join and come along to?

Charlie Bethel (: 49:51

So they vary. So some sheds give, as for donation, obvious sheds might say it's a pound a session. Other sheds might have, it's a hundred pound for a year's membership, and then you can pay that over that time. But it's usually by declaration means test it. And if somebody's struggling, the shed will always find a way of keeping them in there. And I think every shed I've ever spoken to would not put the cost as an obstacle for somebody joining. And the UK Men Sheds Association's founder that was at Camden, shed set up Camden Shed, and the first guy who came through the door was living on five pound a week because he had an argument with the DHS, whatever they were called at the time. He was mending his own shoes, he was doing all of those activities. And after three months, he said to them, I'd have been dead if it wasn't for this place. And it was because they didn't charge, but because they were so welcoming as well. And he had nothing else in his life to go to at that time, he no longer goes to that shed. He's got a job, he's got somewhere to live. It's a very different story because the shed gave him that confidence. And so yeah, it's an incredible power

(: 51:11

And it's been coined as therapy that dare not speak your name, speak its name, the men's shed. I prefer soft play for men, but it really does have that kind of cheeky impact as well. Yeah,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 51:25

Yeah. So it's a case by case, shared by shared basis, but finances are not a reason to not go because there's something can always be done. If you need the shed, then the shed needs you. How do people find, sorry. Sorry, you go.

Charlie Bethel (: 51:41

No, well, the only obstacle is that sheds are at capacity at the moment. So we're trying to help sheds with training and finding other premises and more sheds to open because a lot of sheds have waiting lists, which should never happen. They're trying to open more days where they can. But a lot of sheds are open five days a week and looking at, well, do we do evenings? Do we do weekends? And that's starting to happen around the shed network as well. So that's probably the only barrier that's there at the moment.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 52:13

Okay. And how do people find their closest shed or try and get themselves on a waiting list or see if there's space available?

Charlie Bethel (: 52:22

So there's an app on our website, which is mens sheds.org uk. There's a find a shared tool. You type in your postcode, you remember to click search, which is always my issue when I do it. And then it comes up with all the local sheds and it will have their contact details, whether that's a phone number or an email address. But also, if there isn't a shed in your area, we're there to try and help create more sheds. But sheds need to be created by the men and women in their local community because then it becomes sustainable. There are a number of shed projects where somebody sets up a shed and pays for somebody to run it, but they usually, they're not very sustainable. And even if they've lasted 10 years, they then just collapse. And we're seeing this quite a lot now. Whereas if you build it from that community and we help to do that, you see a very strong sustainable shed with all the income that it needs to continue to exist and to grow and develop. And some sheds have gone over 200.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 53:26

Okay. Well, it really does sound like you're changing lives, and if people are touched by this and want to donate to the Men's Sheds Association, can they?

Charlie Bethel (: 53:35

Yes. Again, on our website, there is an opportunity to do that or just to email in and speak to us, particularly if that function's broken again. But yeah, no, they could do that. But just give us a call and find out more about us and what we're doing. So there may be some local sheds that you want to support

Dr Marianne Trent (: 53:54

And a men's sheds on social media. Can people follow you on socials?

Charlie Bethel (: 53:58

Yes. We're on all of the things that are on social media, which I dunno how to use, but yes. No, we're on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 54:06

I'll make sure it's on the screen and in the show notes and people can follow. Yes.

Charlie Bethel (: 54:11

No, we're on all

Dr Marianne Trent (: 54:11

Those. Thank you so much for your time and for everything that you and your organisation do to support men and in fact, women in Men's Sheds.

Charlie Bethel (: 54:19

Thank you, Marianne.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 54:21

Thank you. Thank you so much to Charlie and indeed all of our guests for their time in speaking with me so that we can help build this narrative around what can be done to better include men so that we can get this suicide rate reduced more generally. But also to think about reducing the incidents of male suicide specifically. I would love your thoughts around this. Have you found this a useful episode? Has it inspired your thinking either for your own mental health or that of someone else that you support? Please do let me know in the comments. If watching on YouTube, please do subscribe, like, share to the teams that you are working with, be they clinical or be they on a building site in a farm, or just down the pub. If you're listening as an mp. Three, please do consider rating and reviewing on Spotify and Apple Podcast. I'm Dr. Marianne Trend. It is my privilege and pleasure to speak with you and to bring you this really important content. If you would like to connect with me, please do come and join my Facebook group, the Aspiring Psychologist Community, with Dr. Marianne Trent. Thank you so much for being part of my world. Take care. If you're

Jingle Guy (: 55:32

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