How to be the 'perfect' aspiring psychologist, with Meg Salter - Trainee PWP

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:28

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am joined today by the lovely Meg. Hi, Meg.

Meg salter (: 00:36

Hi. It's lovely to be here.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:39

Really nice to have you here. And we connected on LinkedIn. I'm not lying, I do like LinkedIn. I mention it quite a lot, but I'm often on there and yeah, we were just thinking about a number of issues and I was like, "How did you feel maybe about coming along and recording a podcast episode." And you were naturally a little bit apprehensive but you went for it. And so thank you for being brave. So yeah, we were talking about a number of things, but before we do that, could you just give us a little bit of an overview about who you are and what stage of your journey you are at as an aspiring psychologist, Meg?

Meg salter (: 01:19

Yep, of course. So currently I'm a trainee PWP. I started that role in March and before that I worked in more private mental health organisations, more admin than clinical. I've spent a couple of placements doing kind of voluntary assistant psychology post but never had an employed. I've kind of preferred to go down the PWP route as it seemed kind of right for me at the time. I think I've wanted to be a clinical psychologist since I knew what they were. I've taken a bit of a break here and there. I think after my undergrad I was like "No more psychology, I need a break." And so I went kind of more into organisational psychology for a year. But clinical psychology brought me back, that's my interest. And so I'm just kind of building up my experience, hopefully get my qualification from IPWP and then we'll see where it goes.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 02:19

Brilliant. So not everyone listening to this will know what a PWP is. Could you tell us a little bit, a quick run through about what they are, what do and how the training for it works please, Meg?

Meg salter (: 02:34

Yeah, so it's abbreviated for psychological wellbeing practitioner and basically the role is within the stepped care model of mental health and it's a step two approach. So basically the role looks like you are a therapist but in a step 2 approach, which means that it's very low intensity kind of working with people with mild to moderate anxiety and depression. And what we do is it's a lot more guided self-help than actually treating a client. So they will come to us if they have these issues, we assess them, see if we can meet their needs. And then when we go into treatment, I suppose every fortnight or weekly sessions, we will go through various different interventions with them depending on what they're struggling with. And so the training for that is 12 months and we are at uni maybe one or two days a week. And the rest of the time we spend in service and then once you finish your training, that's when you are fully qualified.

(: 03:42

A lot of people step up after they've finished their training or after they've spent a year or two qualified. So then step 3 is like high intensity CBT therapists or similarly people will then try to get onto the doctor as well. So it's a really good way because it's very, very clinical. You have a lot of contacts in a week, a lot of clinical hours. It's very high volume work. You don't have a long-term relation therapeutic relationship with your clients but you get through a lot of them. So it's a really, really good experience to build up your clinical skills.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:24

But potentially a bit draining as well if it's high volume.

Meg salter (: 04:28

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely draining. I think you need to manage your expectations of the role and of the service because step 2 care is the first kind of point of call after your GP. So we get through a lot of assessments and a lot of them won't be suitable for the service. They'll need either higher intensity treatment or even outside services if it's more specific within trauma or anything that basically can't be contained within six half an hour sessions. So yeah, it can be very draining but for the people that it's meant for, it works for. So I think that just needs to be kind of bad in mind if people are looking at going into a PWP role.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:12

Brilliant. And I know one of the common questions I'll be asked is, well do you get paid to train? Do you have to pay to do the course? Could you talk us through the finances a little bit, Meg?

Meg salter (: 05:22

Yep. So you don't have to pay to go on the course that is all paid for and your starting salary as a band 4 in the NHS. I think it goes up to band 5 once you are qualified, but yeah, you have no payment for university fees or anything like that. It's all covered within the service.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:45

Brilliant. So it's sort of comparable to an assistant post.

Meg salter (: 05:49

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 05:51

Yeah. But you're getting specific training and specific sort of modalities and for a specific client group. Is it all adult work?

Meg salter (: 05:59

Nope. So you kind of choose because you have your adult IAPT services. So PWPs work under the IAPT which is improving access to psychological therapy service. But then there's also a child and young person's PWP and that's is specific for children. There can be a little bit of a crossover. Late teens, some are seen as children, some are seen as adults. So for instance, you know could have a 17 year old client if you're in an adult IAPT service and there'll be certain safeguarding procedures and things that you will have to do that you might not have to do for your 40 year old client or something. So there is a little bit of a crossover but there are two different roles.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 06:43

Great, thank you for that. And one of the reasons we were chatting on socials is thinking about when life deviates from the course we'd intended and the ensuing panic that can be awakened within us when that happens of, "But I want to get onto training by a certain year or a certain age and what will this say about me and how will it look on my CV?" And I was like "Hold on, hold on. It's okay. There's no race."

Meg salter (: 07:18

Yes.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 07:19

And we get there when it's right for us. And I firmly believe I got on training when it was the right time for me and had I got on the year before, even though I applied, I would've been a bit out of my depth. I just wasn't ready at that stage. And there's that sense of what's for you doesn't pass you by. And that I know there's a great deal of competition for these places on doctoral training, but you absolutely wouldn't want to be looking around the room and thinking everybody else is amazing. And I really, not just as an imposter syndrome, I really genuinely do not know what I'm doing. I feel like this is wildly outside my comfort zones. You know what I want for you and what I want for everyone else who is successful at getting a place is that they look around and they see their contemporaries actually.

(: 08:15

So we would expect on training that at some points, especially if you've worked in a particular client area before that you're like, "Oh this is a bit boring. I sort of feel like I know this." But as training progresses you might find that teaching on learning disabilities, intellectual disabilities or different areas of mental health that you haven't worked with before, you will feel less skilled and so that you've got more to learn. But there should be some feelings of mastery in what we're doing, which shouldn't feel like totally starting afresh, but there should be some bits where you are like, "This is a bit trickier than I imagined. It should feel like a bit of a stretch but not wildly, wildly out of your comfort sense. So we were speaking about the impact of work but generally our mental health and how that can affect us at times.

(: 09:06

I've absolutely had time off for my mental health in the past. So when my dad died I took a chunk of time off to kind of grieve. I was qualified at that point. But absolutely if that had happened during my training, I would've done that during my training. But then I'm reflecting on, well if that had happened when I was an assistant psychologist, would I have still felt that pressure then to keep on striving and to keep my nose to the grindstone? I wonder if I would've done more so. And so I think there's something around the compassionate voices within the services we work in and I guess the compassionate voices within this podcast as well that really encourage you to see yourself as unique and special and important and that we treat you as such in a service. And I know when we are an aspiring psychologist it can feel like you're just a number in the system sometimes, don't know if anyone listening to this has listened to episode 52 of the podcast, but it is all about how to get an assistant psychologist post in modern times and we're thinking about contextual admissions and that is with Dr.

(: 10:23

Alistair and with Anna as well. And it's a really useful episode and definitely I feel that their service is getting it right in terms of treating people as unique and important and special and that they're not thinking about them as short term fly-by-night employees. They really want to welcome them back as qualified staff. They want them to feel so understood, validated, seen, heard, and important that they want to come back. It's not like you clock off on your last day as an aspiring psychology and you think, "Thank God for that." This would be the ultimate level of success. It's like when we're raising children that if your children choose to be in your life in adult life, that's the biggest well done, isn't it? A sense that we've allowed them to individuate but they're still choosing to be in our life. And I think the same is true of the services we work in. If we are super keen to go back to them and still be in their lives when we are qualified, that is good because it says that we've had a decent, decent treatment and care. So please don't share more than you want to. But would you be able to talk us through how you recognise that actually you weren't really well enough for work whilst you were undergoing your training. But again, keep yourself safe and don't share more than you want to.

Meg salter (: 11:47

Yeah, absolutely. So I think I've, I'm sure people can relate, especially in this field, that you always try to shove your own feelings down and you want to get on with the job and you want to be perfect and you want to do your best and you want to give everything for your clients. And it was earlier on in the year and I was thinking "I'm not feeling so good." And I'm trying to deliver, meet service outcomes or try and impress my employers and my tutors and things like that. And I just had no energy left in the tank so I couldn't possibly give any more than I did. And it was at that point where I thought, "Okay, this isn't working right now. I need to take some time to regroup, do some inner work before I then feel able to give my services to other people."

(: 12:44

Because I am a strong believer of if we don't look after ourselves we can't look after anybody else. So although there was a lot of inner conflict with that because I'm very much a perfectionist and I really want to just give my all, all the time, the reality of it was my personal situation had changed and I had to kind of respond to that in the most effective way without kind of sabotaging future meg or also current Meg. So there was definitely a fine balance of trying to assess the situation, see what I could give and what I couldn't. And it turned out I just couldn't give what my clients needed. And I think for me that was the main thing that went through my head was we have our clients that come into the service for support and for guidance. And at that moment in time I didn't feel like I could give them my best authentic self.

(: 13:46

And so I spoke with my line manager and his manager who had been very, very supportive and they just said, no, you need to look after you first take some time, we'll come back when you're ready. And I think for me the timeline of wanting to be qualified as a PWP by a certain time, apply for the doctorate by a certain time, all of that was going through my head when I did you say, "Okay, I'll take a break." And there was so much shame that got brought up because you know, want to do what you intended to do and life unfortunately doesn't work like that. You can have the next decade of your life planned out fully and something is going to turn show up and turn your path a different direction. So it's definitely been a learning curve this year, but I think I kind of want to explain that it's probably for the best what's happened this year because I think it could make me into a better practitioner.

(: 14:50

Because I've had the time for myself, I've managed to work on myself and I think a lot of people be able to relate that they have their own stuff. I think that's the main reason why we like to be in the field is because we know what it's like and we want to be able to help people who have been in similar situations or feeling in similar ways. So by me really focusing on my inner work and healing and all that sort of stuff, I think when March comes and when the trainee PWP course starts again, I think I'm in a much better position to be able to take it. And although I felt I loved the job that I was doing and I enjoyed going to uni and I soaked of all of the content and was honestly I found it great fun.

(: 15:41

I knew that it wasn't long lasting, burnout was pending and burnout happened. But now after experiencing that, I'm now able to implement my own wellbeing strategies into the role back in March whenever you start my training to know, "Okay, what are the signs that you're working too hard or what are the signs that you need to take a break.", or things like that. So I think it's really important to try not and go by your timeline, which I'm still battling with, but at the end of the day where if you do have to take time off, I think it can only be a positive because you are always learning.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:27

You are. Thank you for sharing that with us and well done for having that level of insight and reflection as well. So it sounds like that had been discussed that with your team, but I know from working in services myself in the past that sometimes it's a top-down process. Sometimes people recognise with you, I'm not sure this is the best time for you to be here right now. And they might highlight things that they've observed and that can feel really triggering and add to shame. But hopefully people are having conversations with their superiors or their supervisors that feel compassionate and don't feel judgey or critical or hostile. We want our staff teams to be well and thriving so that they can help our clients to do the same. Yeah, I'm really pleased that you had a good experience from your supervisors. If you could take some of the learning you've got this year to apply retrospectively, is there anything you think could have been different that would've led to a different outcome at the time?

Meg salter (: 17:38

Yes, lots of things. I think hindsight is something of a mystery. But yes, so I think where I'm based and where the job was, complete other side of the country and I think when you're in the position of being offered this fancy new job on your road to being a clinical psychologist, you kind of take it without thinking about it because the places are so competitive and somebody says that they want you and you're there. So I just took it and I was like, "Okay.", I didn't really think it through at all. I'm from the north of the country and on a purely logistic level, the north is cheaper than the south. And so then transferring to the south, I was like, "I don't actually know if this is feasible." So at the time I would commute, I had a family friend in the same city, so I would commute down, stay with them and commute back up.

(: 18:36

And it was four and a half hours to five hours at a time. So that was kind of the first thing that I was like, maybe I did not think this through. And also I think the biggest thing for me is how much you put into the role. I think it means so much to us to do a good job and to do great, but I don't think anything is worth the expense of your wellbeing. And I think I would do overtime, when I was finishing work I would read through all of the uni reading, even the recommended that wasn't core content. And even on weekends and before I went to bed and my whole life revolved around being a PWP. And I think that that's not possible. Nobody can work 24 hours a day. And although I wasn't seeing clients all that time, it was constantly on my mind.

(: 19:33

And so I think I would've tried to set more boundaries in place when I log off from work, I worked from home as well as in service. I'd log off, I should have hid my laptop or make it a complete anti work zone so I can then do things for me and my family, my friends, and then come back fresh the next day instead of feeling like you're just continually just being a PWP. And I think the journey of becoming a psychologist or a practitioner in any discipline really, I think you need to be able to take the time because you just want to soak up everything because you do feel like you are on a timeline and you feel like you need to get through it as quick as possible. But actually in retrospect, if I'd slowed down then that could have been more beneficial.

(: 20:30

And I think even before taking the role, I felt the pressure to do something new. The role came up quite spontaneously. I was just browsing LinkedIn and it came up and I thought, "Oh okay." And then I applied and a week later got the job. And so well there was not much time to think about anything. And because we do want to progress on the psychology ladder, we do take things without maybe thinking it through completely. And although I felt that I was competent enough to do the role at the time and I didn't feel out of my depth anymore than I should have, I think it's all about balance, I think. And a lot of people talk about balance, it's coming up a lot in mindfulness practise and all that sort of thing, but it's so important and I always took it for granted. And so I don't need mindfulness, I just need to keep working. But actually if you can just slow down and take it a step at a time and don't put too much pressure on yourself to be perfect, then I think that would've got me a lot further.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 21:40

Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, four and a half hour commute is never going to be doing anyone a good service. That's going to make you exhausted before you've even begun. That's going to slap the soul out of anybody. And I'm guessing if there'd been a choice for a course closer to you, you'd have gone for that. But this isn't what that was. It was like one employing trust who were employing trainee to PWPs. You saw it applied and that was that. But yeah, with a compassionate choice, you likely would've gone for one that was half an hour down the road from you, but that wasn't available. And just to put some context in this, I absolutely did this. I had a bit of a wild phase where I decided I needed an NHS assistant post and I needed it to be in a different clinical area than the one I was working in.

(: 22:30

And I scatter-gunned the country with applications and when it came to it and I was offered an interview in Birmingham and an interview in Nottingham and an interview in the lake district and I was living in rural, it came to us. I was like, "I don't even want to live in the lakes." I think I sort of thought, "Oh, that'd be all right. It'd be like an hour and a half or so up the motorway." No, that would've been like three and a half, four hours. That's a long way. You just didn't think Maryanne. And we're allowed to be mindful and make choices that work for ourselves and our lives. And of course we might think that would be a fantastic job, but it might have to be a fantastic job for somebody else that lives more close, that lives closer than I do. And I can compassionately let that one go.

(: 23:27

I can shrink my geographical area when I'm on Track or NHS Jobs or wherever so that I'm only travelling within 30 miles and even that is probably further than I want to travel. So we can't do everything, we can't get all the experience. I think about when I was an undergraduate, I was 18 and I was in the I think it's theoretical themes and debates lecture and the lovely Alan Grandfield was teaching me, I wonder if he's maybe not around anymore because he was a little bit older at the time, but he was talking to us about the id, the ego and the super-ego. And I always remember his little impression of the id just going, "Me, me, me, me, more, more, more, more, more. It's all for me. It's all for me." And I feel like it was the id bit of me that was doing all of that scatter-gun applying.

(: 24:23

And whether we just need to balance that with our ego and our super ego and our compassionate voices to just soothe everything down and give ourselves some understanding that there will be another time, there will be another job and things shouldn't feel like a massive stretch. They should feel just within our comfort zones. But if they're not, that's a sign. So we look at window of tolerance a lot in the work I do with people. If they're too much of a stretch, it's going to leave you feeling hyper aroused or hyper aroused. And those are not good states to be in.

Meg salter (: 25:04

No, I'm smiling when you share that story because I think so many people will be in the same boat. I know a few people, I do it myself. I think because there is this kind of expectation on the psychology field of the sooner you qualify the better and all of that, you just do things. It's almost, you're like you're on autopilot, you think you're thinking at the time, but actually you're not. And for me especially, I had a lot going on in my personal life at that time and although a new job was definitely on the cards because I'd outgrown my old role and I was ready to be a PWP, I think within the timing of what was going on, for me personally, it probably wasn't a good time at all. And with PWPs two intakes a year, so you've got your March and your September, I could have waited till September, but I think there was that internal pressure of "No, you've got to do it now because if you leave your job and just take a couple months off, then what's that going to look like on your CV?"

(: 26:16

And I think we all come back to this needs to look good. Even on your LinkedIn page if there's any gaps in work or if there's, you've maybe done a clinical post and then maybe reduce your hours and done more of an admin post or something like that. This pressure of everything has to add up. And I think sometimes in life, the different experiences is what makes you a better practitioner because you've got more experience around you than just going from A to B to C to D. Sometimes life can take you around round the back and it could spin you around a bit. But I think essentially we just have to, like you said, soothe, take a breath and try and really figure out what is best for us right now instead of what's best for us for five years time. Because I think that's a very big inner conflict that I have.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 27:14

Yeah, I definitely agree and I think this is part of the value of this podcast is because it's very different when someone who understands the profession you are in and understands the struggles that you have says, "Hold on a minute, really?" Someone needed to say to me, "Marianne, what are you doing? Why are you applying to the lakes? Look at a map. Do you know where that is?" And I might been like, "Oh I've been a little impulsive, a little bit hasty." But there's something if your mum or your auntie goes "Really?" It feels like they don't really understand. So I think, like I said, this is the value of the podcast. A compassionate, non-judgmental, empathic voice just to say "It's okay, there will be time, there are other options, there is another path you can take. And that's going to be okay too. It's not a race even though it may feel like it."

(: 28:10

So yeah, learn from my past mistakes so that you don't end up doing what I did, which was semi on the edge of burnout as I slumped on the stairs at my parents' house sobbing because I just couldn't do it. I couldn't do it was all too much. I can't go on a job interview to Nottingham tomorrow, I can't do it. I haven't got it in the tank because I was at that time recovering from a car crash and doing a master's in part-time whilst working full-time and whilst recovering from a breakup of a long-term relationship. I didn't have the energy in the tank to get to Nottingham to go and do an interview for a job I probably didn't even really want. And so learn from me as you listen to this and as you listen to Meg. Learn from that, thinking about just taking stock on your individual capacity and your resources right now, which might be different than they were a few months ago, even when you applied, but you are allowed to make the decisions for you right now and we can't, as you say, predict what might be coming and how that might affect our emotional or practical resources.

(: 29:21

And so it's always okay to take stock and continue to check that things are working for you. And actually what you've found is taking time out hasn't been as bad as you'd expected.

Meg salter (: 29:33

No, no, not at all. I think there is that sometimes it creeps up the inner conflict that I should be in the post right now, I should be doing that. But by taking the time off I've learned a lot about myself, I've learned a lot about my approach to work, to life in general and I think just spending that time of building up some more inner awareness, I think that really has prompted me to move forward in a completely different way that I wouldn't have even thought of this time last year because this time last year it was go, go, go. But now I'm recognising when I'm starting to lose energy or when my tank isn't quite full or when personal circumstances arrive that that's life and it's about being able to tolerate that. And like you mentioned with the window of tolerance, I think this year for me has been all about expanding my window of tolerance.

(: 30:33

Because this time last year there wasn't even a window, there was maybe a crack of tolerance, but we are getting onto a window now. So I think it's so important, like you say, just to take your time with things and although I would much rather be in work, I'm employed, I'm just taking the time off and I think, "Oh, I'm so left behind. My cohort is nearly qualified now and that could have been me.", and all those negative thoughts and ruminations come up, but I'm in such a better place than I was 10 months ago.

(: 31:12

That actually allows me to kind of take on the role again when training restarts in March in a completely new life. And I've got so much more in my tank to be able to offer. And I've also got the kind of skills now to recognise when I do need to take a break and when I say break, I mean take the weekend off or have an evening to yourself or reduce screen time or anything like that, which before I wouldn't have had any of it. I would be so adamant to do things my way, to do it 100%, but you can't give 100% of yourself all the time, you need to be able to rest. And so I think it's done me the world of God to take some time off just so I can recognise all of those inner awareness really.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:03

Absolutely. And we were thinking about the move towards contextual admissions as well and how actually what you've been through will be really useful in terms of your awareness of services, but also your ability to reflect and to draw on what you've been through. And whilst they say that you don't have to be hit by a bus to know that it hurts, it sure does help in terms of your empathy for knowing what things feel like. I wouldn't recommend everyone getting hit by a bus that is a figure of speech. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing your story with you and I know it's one that many will resonate with and that will be really useful for people in future.

Meg salter (: 32:46

Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure to be on the podcast and I think when I reached out to you initially, I did not expect to be offered to be on the podcast and like you say at the start, although there was a bit of apprehension to start with, I just think it's nice to hear from somebody who's kind of been through different things and I know that I appreciate it when guests come on, on the podcast. It just offers you a new perspective and yeah, I really appreciate being here and I hope that I have been of some value to others.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 33:19

You absolutely have. And I knew that the questions you were asking were important considerations for so many aspiring psychologists, so that's why. Yeah, I'm really glad that you are able to be brave and wishing you all the best with the rest of your training, but this is an opportunity. You get an extra cohort to have connections with and to draw on for support. It's not always a negative. There's benefits to all situations as well, and whilst we don't need to shine up the dull side of a penny, this is a nice opportunity that you're going in with the full awareness and insight into what this is going to be like and you're still choosing to do it, but you get a whole new set of people to do it with and then your current cohort will be really interested in still supporting you, checking in with you. So it's like it's a really nice situation hopefully too.

Meg salter (: 34:08

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, I'm a bit of a believer in everything happens for a reason and this was what was meant to happen and I'm just taking it on board and just seeing what happens. So I'm really excited to start my training again in March and then over time we'll see what happens and when the time is ready, I think I'll know when I should then start applying for the doctorate. But for now I'm just going to focus on getting back on training and then getting qualified and we'll see what happens from there.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:43

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time. Wishing you a lovely festive break and yeah, thank you for your time in recording this really important podcast episode, Meg.

Meg salter (: 34:53

Thank you. Thank you for having me and I hope that you have a lovely holiday period.

Avalon (: 34:58

Hello, my name is Avalon and I'm an undergraduate psychology student. I really enjoyed reading the Aspiring Psychologist Collective and I really honestly just couldn't put it down. I found it really helpful because as I'm in my final year and starting to think about what I'd like to do after uni, and up until this point I've been very set on the idea of pursuing an AP role and the Aspiring Psychologist Collective helped me to see that there are so many more options out there that may appeal to me and I'm looking forward to exploring some leads and broadening out my options. And I also really appreciated that people were open about their lived experience and how they navigated them over their psychology journey. I had a lived experience of an eating disorder, so it was really inspiring to hear about how people have brought that into their reflections and how it shaped the clinicians that they are today.