Getting started in research, parental mental health & infant nutrition - with Prof Amy Brown

00:29: Marianne:

Hi, welcome along to the aspiring psychologist podcast. It's really important when we are working with people as aspiring psychologists or beyond that we understand just how important the early stages of life are and the early stages of bonding and attachment and nurturance, uh, between caregivers and newborns and someone who has specialized in this over recent years is professor Amy Brown. She's a psychologist, an author, a researcher. She specializes in researching infant feeding, maternal mental health and public health. She has published a number of books on this topic as well, and all of them are just wonderful. I hope that you will find this episode to be really useful in helping you think about any key and pertinent issues around this key stage of development and how and why. It's important for us to understand this theory and this practice as we go through our career in psychology.

01:38: Marianne:

Um, so just want to welcome along, um, professor Amy Brown is, um, an all-round research genius in my eyes. Uh, welcome along, Amy.

Amy:

Thank you for having me.

Marianne:

You're more than welcome. So I thought it might be useful for us to think a little bit about your journey with research, um, and also feel free to say what you do currently as well. Oh

Amy:

Gosh. So I'm a professor of child public health at swansea university, where actually I've been since my undergraduate, I'm one of those very lucky researchers who did the undergraduate, their masters, their PhD at the same university, and also then managed to get several jobs at the university. So it is possible. You don't necessarily have to move around it, if anybody who tells you that. So I run a research centre, I run a master's program. I have numerous PhD students and different research projects. And then I also do quite a lot of writing in terms of media articles and engagement with the media. I run a website and I've written a, I think it's 10 books. I've actually lost track at this stage. So I think it's 10 all about the research that I do, but trying to make it accessible for those who read it. So my research is into early parenting experiences and birth and pregnancy and feeding babies and mental health in particular. And it's about writing guides for parents, health professionals, and just those people who work in that area.

03:10: Marianne:

I just wanna say thank you really, because I think your books are incredible. You know, I first picked up, uh, breastfeeding uncovered when I was feeding my, eldest, who's now eight and a half and I just never read anything like it before, you know, it was on my side, it was humorous and it was evidence based, you know, you're really funny. And like, I think that helps, you know, and it also, you know, inspired me to think about putting my own books together, to get my, you know, words out there. And so I just think you, I just think you're incredible, Amy.

03:46 Amy:

Thank you. It it's about that gap that I think sometimes you have practitioners and writers who are outside academia and clinical practice and they were write books in a certain way. And then you have sort of academics and practitioners who might be very, very evidence based. And it, it tends to be, it's excellent. It's really, you know, research driven, but it's more challenging to read as a textbook or, you know, a seminal text on the subject. So it's what I try to do is kind of bridge that gap so that it's really evidence based and it's supported by lots of references and research, but you can sit on the sofa on a Sunday evening and read it or you can download it on audible and take it on your dog, walk with you want it to be accessible. Really. I think that's the, the key word in it all.

04:36: Marianne:

And it really is. You do it effortlessly, you know, I have said, but four that breastfeeding uncovered is one of my favorite books on any topic, not even just kind of, um, infant nutrition, but you know, what you do really works and it really matters actually your, um, first year of parenting book, I think should be given out to people with, you know, with their Emma's diary or whatever, you know, because it it's so useful. And actually, I would've been much kinder on myself as a parent. Um, had I read it. So I was definitely in, um, in the attachment parenting camp. Um, and I read, is it, there's a lovely book by a doctor Sears. His stuff felt like real, real sort of soul food as a, as a parent, but actually yours is so much more passionate. Um, and you know, I just really like, I just really like it. I even like the yellow pages in it, like, So you know what you do, what you do matters and you're somehow you, you know, you're doing it. You're bridging that gap between textbook and fricking useful stuff.

05:39: Amy:

I think it's, I think I write to my, I think I write what I needed 15 years ago and I know what new parents need, because I've been there three times. And I think that when you have some distance from that, you start being able to be more open. So you can admit that things were really tough or that some days you really didn't like it, or you could admit all those thoughts you had in your head about running away and never coming back. And that parents often say to me on social media, it's like, it's like, how do you know this about me? Like, it's some sort of magic and it's like, no, no, you, you just basically are, but sort of 10, 15 years behind me, that's all

06:20: Marianne:

Definitely, definitely. We've all had those moments of hiding as we go and eat something to hide from our children, like have a moment to decompress and just feeling like, you know, who's, who's let me be the grown up with these children, you know, who said, I can do this because I think we need a recount here. How did you get started in? So I love that you actually, you know, our dads told us growing up, there was no such thing as a job for life these days, but you are you're disproving that! How did you get started in academia? Oh

06:53: Amy:

Gosh. Right. So when I was an undergraduate student, like many psychology students, I wanted to be a clinical psychologist. And it's almost a funny story. It's kind of in hindsight that I think you end up where you are meant to be. So I really wanted to be a clinical psychologist, but I'm also A person who really absorbs other people's emotions really, really strongly. So I get quite distressed. If friends are distressed, you know, I watch TV and I'm feeling everything and I thought, okay, right, hang on. I don't think you're gonna be able to cope with clinical psychology. You're just gonna be a mess the whole time. So I thought I'd go into that really non emotive field of research. And I kind of started on the edges of, of nutrition research. So I was really interested in charges, nutrition and, and mental health kind of more broadly, but I was gonna do my PhD on, I can't even remember what it was meant to be on now. I think it was feeding to children. So it's older, children's dire around emotional feeding practices. So the idea that, you know, not bribing children with food, not rewarding them with food, Like all good plans. Um, about a week into that PhD, I realized that I was pregnant with my first baby and this, you know, this is a whole other kind of theme of this, you know, people told me then, oh, that's the end of your career in academia? Are you gonna come back to it? You're never gonna manage with one baby. So I had three instead just to prove them wrong. Um, but I became fascinated by the experience of maternity care. So infant feeding in particular, because all the way through pregnancy people kept telling me that breastfeeding was really, really important. And, and you must do it. And it was, you know, really important for the baby and yourself. And then I had that baby and I realized that actually, a lot of the support and care around feeding your baby and your own mental health was, was missing.

09:01: Amy:

And I kept meeting other mothers like you do when you've, you've got a baby, you go to the baby group. And when they saw me breastfeeding, they would always tell me their story. And it was usually something along the lines of, they really wanted to be like their baby fed too much, or they couldn't get the support they needed. And it was like, they kept having to justify, but there were all these myths around feeding. So they'd keep telling me, oh, I couldn't feed because of X and I'd think, well, that's not, you know, with the right support, you might have been able to, to feed them. So I just became fascinated in the whole issue of barriers to breastfeeding and the lack of support, and then subsequently the impact upon mental health, which is where we come full circle because I've ended up doing so much research now into the grief and the trauma and the increased risk of postnatal depression that comes alongside not being able to meet your own feeding goals. So not being able to breastfeed for as long as you wanted to experience lots of pain and difficulty. And of course the level of emotion and grief and just distress that goes alongside all of that is immense. So, you know, you have 20 year old me deciding, oh no, we can't possibly be a clinical psychologist because there's just too much Emotion And distress involved. And yeah, no, you can't escape from what you're meant to be doing. It's basically the lesson. All of, all of that,

10:32: Marianne:

Your path found you, um, You're Doing, you're doing much worthwhile and worthy work, but also what interested in what you said is, is something that I experienced a lot in, in my burgeoning career and probably still now too, but it's what unhelpful messages people give you about yourself along the journey. You know, you couldn't possibly do that and you won't do that and you'll never get to there. And perhaps you should try a bit, you know, aim a bit lower and that's not that useful, is it?

11:00: Amy:

No, it's, it's a complete red rag to a bull for me, to be honest, as soon as somebody tells me I can't do anything, I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it 10 times more of what you just told me. I can't do. But I, I was told that so many times. I mean, my PhD supervisors were brilliant, really supportive, but people around me told me my career was over and I'd never succeed now. And isn't it a shame because I was doing such good PhD work, but I had, you know, I would say I had two and a half babies during my PhD because I was about 20 weeks pregnant at Viva. Um, I just got the actions in before he was born. And, you know, if, if anybody is reading this as a PhD student, I actually found that it worked really well because well, for my type of PhD anyway, because a, I was conducting research with families.

11:53: Amy:

So it actually gave me more accessibility and more credibility, but also I could, I could just fit it around them. I didn't have to be in an office job nine till five every day. So it was actually a, one of the easier times in my opinion to ha actually have them at, at that point, they certainly never stop me. And of course, once you have children, you, you don't really get the option to just stop and not, you know, carry on you, you have to keep working to support them. And that's essentially what I did. I just kept going. I wish I could say there was some big strategy with all of this, but it was just persistence. I think alongside luck, you know, positions coming up at the right time, um, being able to have the skills of writing easily. So I had lots of publications, so I was getting, um, research positions and then, um, academic posts, but they certainly never stopped me. They, they helped, I don't think I'd have the career that I have without them, both through the drive to keep going and prove everybody wrong, make sure that they were supported, but also just the huge understanding and access to the area that I was researching.

13:03: Marianne:

Life happens whilst you're waiting for your psychology career to start, doesn't it. Yeah. But actually what you're saying is it really makes your career as well. You know, I was, I remember in CAMHS placements and things and thinking, oh, they're gonna say if you've got any children and I'm gonna be like, no. Um, and I, but I definitely feel since becoming a mother, it's broadened my ability to connect with others and to understand, you know, I was already pretty much an empath anyway, but I really feel that, you know, becoming a parent and then losing a parent as well has just helped me on so many levels. Uh, and actually I don't spend all of the sessions crying. So, you know, we do all right. We do. All right. Um, it sounds, yeah, it sounds like you actually, you know, absolutely made hay whilst the sunshine, um, as you were developing your career.

13:53: Amy:

time that we're talking back: 2005

15:30: Marianne:

You really is. And actually it raises really valid and important points. You know, this feeding trauma, it's a thing. And actually so many of the people I've worked with in adult mental health services, um, women, um, they, you know, they, they recount when they were trying to feed their baby. And nobody's ever thought to ask them a question, but when you look at postnatal depression and you look at how it developed so often it's about that, you know, you're taking really exhausted women. You are giving them false information. You are, you know, shoehorning them to kind of top up their baby and to give food that they might not want to give. And, and they're not allowing mothers to develop their own trust in their ability to feed. And this, you know, this isn't supposed to be an episode of about breast is best. It's not, it's about being informed, isn't it. And actually being able to make choices and having professionals that are supporting you and giving you evidence based, um, advice and guidance.

16:23: Amy:

Yeah. And it is about listening to women as well. Um, whenever I've done research around mental health and infant feeding experiences, it's, it's split into two parts. It's about the actual infant feeding experience and not being able to feed your baby in, in the way you wanted to, but then it's about the dismissal and people not listening once that has happened. So one of the big issues across birth and early parenting is the tendency for people to say that it doesn't matter. So usually it comes from a good place. So it's things like after a difficult birth, people will say, well, look, your baby's healthy. They're here, it's fine. And of course you want that, but it's completely ignoring the, the trauma that you've just been through as if you don't matter. And with feeding babies, if you are so somebody who really wanted to breastfeed and it didn't work out and that's because you weren't supported and you couldn't do what you were promised that would happen.

17:23:

Then of course you are going to have grief around that. You're gonna have all sorts of emotions. And when people then just tell you, it doesn't matter, it's, it's so dismissive and it's not a judgment of using formula, and you're not necessarily unhappy about using formula. You can be very happy that your baby's fed and thriving, but it still matters to you when, when that's dismissed. Then I think that's what sets up this long term emotional impact, because you don't get a chance to process it and you're told it doesn't matter. So you just bury it down. And of course it comes out at later stages.

18:00: Marianne:

It's that constant invalidation whilst actually trying to be quite helpful in the process of accidentally invalidating someone. And I think that's a really useful of stuff for our audience to hold onto, you know, to not be too quick, to smooth things over and say, it's all fine because that baby's, baby's brilliantly healthy and what a good job you did, you know, still, still doing what you needed to do to get your baby, you know, healthy and well. But, um, yeah, this in terms of, it sounds like you've done some really wonderful user led research, but it was, you know, it was stuff that you recognized needed to happen, but has led to really brilliant outcomes. Have you got any advice for how other aspiring psychologists might be able to kickstart their own research, um, efforts?

18:44: Amy:

I think it's around just if you've got a passion for something never giving up and just taking those first steps to actually get it done, I know that sounds, you know, kind of simplistic, but don't let anybody stop you or tell you that that research area doesn't matter. Um, that's one of the other unhelpful messages that I've had along the way, is that at least two very senior academics, um, not at my university, um, but at different universities told me that if I wanted to progress, if I wanted a permanent academic post, if I ever wanted to be professor in the future, I had to stop focusing on this niche area of infant feeding and early parenting and do something far broader. And I thought, no, I don't your DAF go away. My slightly less Polite version than that. But You know, there, again, please don't tell me what I can't do, because that's just going to encourage me to do it. But if you think something is important, it's, it's worth starting with that, that more scale research and it will build, um, you've gotta start somewhere. And that first piece of research is gonna be a, a learning experience. Um, it's gonna have mistakes in it. That's just normal. That's a part of research, but it's about building up that overall picture over time and what might just be a small study and you think isn't might not be fascinating to the wider world probably is for fascinating to somebody else. And they'll see it and they'll build on that and collaborations take time, but it's planting those first seeds, I guess, and having the confidence to take that first step and say, this is important stuff.

20:24: Marianne:

Can, can anyone do it, Amy? So if people are listening and thinking, I kind of thought I needed like a research supervisor or a real grown up to help me through this process, or can anyone kind of look to do, you know, research, ethics and, and get started and do something that's interesting and useful?

20:43: Amy:

Yeah, I dunno about this grown up stuff. I haven't met any, to be honest. I think if we wait around for a grown up work, we're gonna be waiting a long time. I think, you know, research ethics is, is really important. So it's around working out where you're going to get permission from a ethics committee. It it's worth contacting if you're working out in clinical practice and you can see, uh, academic working at a, a university, email them, get in touch with them and say, I've just got this really interesting idea because we love collaborations, particularly with people who are working out their own practice. You know, I'm, I'm not gonna say I sit in an every tower because I don't. Um, I work with, you know, talk to parents via social media all the time, but I'm not working in practice. I don't have that experience. So it's about recognizing the value of what you do have and working in collaboration, if you haven't got, um, access to a ethics committee. So please do reach out. Yeah. Look at

21:40: Marianne:

Such wonderful advice,

21:41: Amy:

Put it into Google scholar and see who's doing research vaguely in your area and get in touch with them.

21:47: Marianne:

That honestly, that is like golden advice, because I think when you're sort of going down a route where you're doing like the, you know, you're doing the relevant experience, um, section of your CV, it can feel like, well, no, one's really doing any research in this department. So I can't really tick that part of my CV off right now, but actually you can, because you can do stuff out to side of that, or you can do it in parallel,

22:11: Amy:

Absolutely. Or contact a university that has a research team in your area that you are passionate about. Um, and see if you can do some research, you know, as a honorary research assistant alongside them. Um, you know, I can't say that everybody will always say yes, but certainly we have people who we employ on short term research contracts to do a, a little bit of research around their training and you then have, um, you know, access to all the, the research learning and knowledge that goes alongside it. Um, ask if you can do a place of, on a, a research project, you know, they're just get in contact and ask because, you know, that's the beginning of the conversation.

22:58: Marianne:

It really is. And you know, you never know the answer might well be yes. Um, and you know, that can be really useful for you, but also the, the populations that you are researching, people are gonna love what, you've, what you've said today. Amy, it's gonna really boost people's confidence, you know, because when you are applying for whatever branch of psychology it is that you're aspiring to, you know, you get the feedback form. Um, I dunno if you ever have got around to applying for anything like, um, for clinical, but you get it broken into what's wrong about you, you know, why your application didn't make, you know, more so it's more varied, clinical experience, more relevant clinical experience, um, academic stuff needs strengthening. And so often people are saying it's the academic one actually. And I don't feel, I don't know where to begin. So people will really, really find your words so incredibly useful today. Thank you.

23:52: Amy:

Oh, good.

23:54: Marianne:

Let me please do tell us some more about your, your book babies, um, and you know, what, what areas you cover and how people can get hold of copies. Oh,

24:02: Amy:

eastfeeding uncovered back in: 2016

24:49: Amy:

Um, thankfully I put myself together after a few days and re submitted it to Pinder and Martin. He said, yeah, sure. We'll publish that. Great. So that was the, the start of that. And it's just an important lesson again, in, in rejection is a normal part. I think kind of a key message throughout academia through, um, psychologists training is you are going to get rejected. It's how you deal with it. That matters. Um, it's not a criticism of you, it's just the system. So from there, so breastfeeding covered is all about the barriers that women face when they they're breastfeeding from a physical, psychological, social economic level, then it was why starting solids matters. So it's around all the research evidence and guidance around introducing solids to babies. So it's, it's again, it's bringing some research evidence rather than myths to this area from then it was positive breastfeeding, which is a guide to breastfeeding.

25:48: Amy:

So something that was slightly out of my comfort zone at the time, it was kind of writing a book that was full of evidence based practical advice. So turning the evidence into practical, inter emotions or support for parents, but I had to back off the references, which I, I've still never very comfortable with, you know, the, the researcher and, you know, student in me has to reference every line. But of course you can't do that with a book directly for parents, um, or the, you know, they don't need thousands and thousands of references. They need a hug. Um, oh gosh, what was next? Um, informed his best. So informed his best came about after yet another argument on the internet about how research evidence was being used incorrectly and myths flying about. So it's, it's aimed at parents and health professionals and anybody who wants to know more about understanding research really, and all the tricks that the media play and the biases in funding and how basically we need to read behind the lines. When we look at media headlines and research studies, we have breastfeeding grief and trauma, which was the book that I was talking about earlier, which is, you know, just valid dating women's experiences around not being able to breastfeed and offering some ideas for how you can get more support with that.

27:12: Amy

What's next. Um, I think that's the first year of parenting book. So let's talk about the first year of parenting, which is, um, it's a big guide, but it's, it's meant to be a book that you dip in. So it's, it's basically all the psychology really of early parenting. So looking after yourself, your mental health, your physical recovery, all the pressures of becoming a parent relationships, going back to work kind of a, a guide

27:39:

There's a section in there about, um, but babies in, uh, early neonatal units as well. Isn't there. I think they

27:45:

All, yeah. So what happens, you know, supporting you, if your baby's in neonatal care or has a disability, or, you know, just your circumstances have changed in any way. We've got sections for single parents. Um, it's got everything and that whole guide to that first year, then we have, oh, uh, guide supporting breastfeeding for the medical profession, which is actually aimed at, um, medical professionals. Um, and it's a edited textbook. So it's got just lots of great authors in it, all providing lots of information. It was aimed at medics due to the gap in the research training around breastfeeding, and that, um, many doctors don't actually have much training around it. So we were just trying to provide the evidence based guide. What are we up to we up to seven, um, we then have, let's talk about feeding your baby, which is a, a shorter book, which is a shorter guide to breastfeeding formula feeding and introducing solids.

28:46:

I'm sure I've missed one here. Anyway, then we have the one you get the updated breastfeeding covered, and then we've got the newest one, which is COVID babies, which is looking at all the research evidence for the impact that the pandemic and lockdowns has had upon pregnancy of birth and early parenting. And just really helping validate experiences during this time. Cuz it's been so, so tough yet. Lots of parents have felt that they can't complain because obviously we're in a, a global crisis and pandemic, but it's really about calling for more support now and support services to help parents process what they've been through and what they've missed out on and change just the care that they might have had. I think that's it

29:32:

Well done because honestly there, I I've read three out three out of the nine, but um, I'm definitely gonna grab me a COVID babies. I'm sorry. Um, but you know, it's important stuff and you're doing it so well and I recommend you so often and you know, I'm sorry for fangirling all over you, um, in this podcast episode, but you know, um, yeah, you're doing really good stuff. What's the best way. All multiple ways that people can get hold of copies of your books.

30:00: Amy:

Um, so I have a website, um, professor Amy brown.co.UK novel, uh, website there, but it's got everything on there. So it's got, well, I'm trying to put all copies of my research articles on there, but that's, that's taking a while cause there are over a hundred of them. And I, you know, I, I just wander Off in the middle of, Of the task. Uh, I've got loads of blog articles. I've written, I've got videos to watch of presentations that I've done. And then there's just a little shop on there where you can buy sign copies and packages of books, I should say as well, that Lindsay hook. And I have got a new book coming out towards the end of mark, which is actually putting together all our experience of writing books and, and writing for the public. Um, so look out for that one as well because, um, that's, if you're interested in, in writing and communicating and aren't sure where to start, it's some guidance around the practicalities, but also dealing with criticism and imposter syndrome and rejection and all those things that we go through. So we're hoping that will be really useful as well,

31:11: Marianne:

So useful. Absolutely. And it might well be, we'll discuss when to schedule this, this episode, but if it would be useful to schedule this one around when that's, uh, when that's gonna be published, then we can absolutely do that. But you know, you've been such an inspiration to talk to you've you've everything I hoped you would be. Um, but you know, You, you know, you, you are doing what so many people, um, would, would be striving to do, and you've given them some really tangible steps for how to do it, but also, you know, for anyone working with of any human during their aspiring psychology journey, you've given us some really useful pointers to consider and the impact that has on them and their ability to, to be a, a parent or a, a child for that matter in, in the world right now.

31:59: Amy:

Thank you. So I think my main message is just, don't give up, just keep going. It's tough, but keep going.

32:05: Marianne

Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, Amy.

32:10: Marianne

Thank you so much for listening. Um, please do come and connect with me on my socials LinkedIns Dr. Marianne, Trent YouTube. Good thinking psychological services, Facebook. Good thinking psychological services, Twitter. Good thinking PS one and Instagram doctor Marianne. Trent. Thank you again for being part of my world and for listening right to the end. We've just got a little bit coming up about the compassionate Q and a series, and then you can enjoy the jingle take care. And like I said, if you'd like to get involved with, um, your own story for the aspiring psychologist collective, then do check out the details in the, um, show notes for how you can rest request more information. But if you head to I, um, website, which is good thinking psychology.co UK, um, and then head to my books, there will be information there for you

33:09: Marianne

Being well supported during any interview season is so important. I have therefore, uh, planned some compassionate question and answer support sessions for you. You are absolutely welcome to come along to all of them. Some of them, none of them, no need to book. And here are the dates for you Monday, the 28th of February from 7:30 PM, Monday the 21st of March 7:30 PM. Monday the 4th of April 7:30 PM. And Monday the 9th of May 7:30 PM. And they will all be live streaming via my socials, uh, which includes Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook. So you can absolutely your favorite, um, platform and they'll all be available on replay as well. Hope you find it so useful. And I will look forward to catching up with some of you then take care.