Do You Have to Drive to Be a Psychologist? Hidden Discrimination in Mental Health Employment?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:00

Is being able to drive a car essential to becoming a psychologist or is it just another hidden barrier? In this episode, we are unpacking a topic that's been frustrating and excluding many aspiring psychologists, whether it's disability, cost of lessons, or the lasting impact of the pandemic. We are talking about the real life consequences of driving being perhaps an unofficial requirement for progressing in psychology careers. Hope you find it really useful. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne, a qualified clinical psychologist and I speak to you as a psychologist who has a driving licence and her own car. That is something I have had since I was an aspiring psychologist. I passed my driving test when I was age 19 in the summer of my first year at undergraduate. It definitely had not come that easy to me and it was something that I spent a lot of money, a lot of time, and three driving tests to perfect.

(: 01:01

Today's podcast episode has come about as a result of me engaging with stuff on LinkedIn. I will tell you more about how this has unfolded as me and my guest Jake talk today, but it's probably worth me saying if you have a suggestion for an episode for the podcast, please do get in contact with me, pitch it to me or engage with me on socials and I might well suggest an episode to you too. Let's dive into our interview with Jake and I will see you on the other side. Just want to welcome our guest along today. Jake. Hi Jake.

Jake (: 01:33

Hi, how are you?

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:35

I'm really well. Thank you for asking. I hope you are okay too. Thank you for reaching out to me to kind of discuss or to hold me accountable actually, because I am quite opinionated well about a number of different things and yeah, sometimes I need to check my privilege and so I think this is a really helpful episode that's kind of come off the back of our private dms and I never meant to offend you, I never meant to offend anybody else, but I still believe there are real advantages to being able to drive, not just in psychology, but generally. Absolutely. I do appreciate that's a kind of privileged position and that does mean that it takes a lot of different factors to bring to fruition. So does it feel okay for you to give us a little bit of context about why what I'd said on this LinkedIn post had kind of irked you

Jake (: 02:34

On the LinkedIn post? It kind of irks me because what I see as a very traditional view from the older generation, I don't want to put it as older because you're not older, but you know what I mean, waving a bit as privileged aside of how you raise working class, middle class, upper class driving wasn't really a barrier back then because like the Post said, you just work at Boots and you earn money and you can get a car at 17. Unfortunately, that's just not the case at the moment. You can do it if you've got nothing else to pay for or think about and you can do it if you want to put most your income in that, but the amount of people that I do know that have cars and driving cars, it takes off a good portion of their income and they don't have to worry about entering a psychology sector itself.

(: 03:26

For me to afford a car, I'd have to think about, I need to get an on psychology related job so I can have the pay of an assistant psychologist for now to be able to afford a car, but I can't. So yeah, it is more of a generational situation rather than what I think is a class's perspective. You can talk to working class parents or whoever and they'll have the same view as like, why don't you just work harder or hard enough and you'll get it because it's so fantastic and a great opportunity and I feel like that's a lot of what happens with this generation is if we're not doing something, it's seen as laziness is a very typical way, but I don't think it's quite laziness. It's a lack of motivational understanding of the benefits, which it's not its capability. We're unable to do it because there's no opportunity and capability unless you're very privileged to or in a previous generation.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:27

Yeah, I hear you and I think the mention to Boots that you made was that I'd said, actually I did pay for my own lessons, but like you said, I was living at my parents' house at the time. I was doing my A levels, I didn't need to pay rent for example. I didn't need to buy my own food. I did laterally. They did judge me rent once I came back after uni, but I appreciate that that is a privileged position that not everyone is in that position and some households actually when their 16-year-old goes out to work, even when they're in full-time education, they need some of that money to support the household finances and I do appreciate that most of my money went on HMV and Pizza Hut driving lessons and kind of getting covert pints from the pub because I'm a June baby, so I, I'm a summer baby late turning 18, but yeah, that is a different position.

(: 05:27

So really I had to ringfence my driving lessons and the rest was for me to buy what those times called going out trousers and going out tops, which is like a whole world away. I am actually a huge amount older than you. I'm 43 Jake, and so this is a very different time that I was raised in and I think that's important that we recognise that whereas if someone's having to contribute, that of course then does diminish their ability to be able to pay. It took me a long time to drive Jake, so I had my first lesson on my 17th birthday was June the 19th and it took me until I was 19, summer of 19, so it took me two years to pass and three attempts I passed on my third attempt and yeah, I've spent a lot of money on driving, but I do appreciate that I didn't have other overheads at that time.

Jake (: 06:25

Yeah, I think it's a difficult one as well because even you throughout your career and even just in driving lessons, you had to work really hard to get that and manage your finances to be able to, overhead costs are not, you still had to work hard and it feels like it's the same climate now as it was then probably to that generation, but it's not and it's rapidly changed in the last five years since covid of what should be a minimum lifestyle or not. So for me, I'm lucky and fortunate enough I don't have to pay any rent. I know that's a privilege I have and I know it's something that gives me a greater chance than other people that will, I dunno if tomorrow I might have to because as much as financially I'm okay at home, I dunno the family situation at any point, so I've got to think about that.

(: 07:18

But yeah, I recognise the privilege that I do have, especially transitioning from I say a higher working class background to a lower middle class in the time I've gone to uni and come back, but these barriers are here and affecting me and I feel like I'm the minimum of what could just about get by in a clinical psychologist career path these days. I can't even imagine how horrible seeing the driving licence requirement on top of everything would be for someone else that has to pay rent or can't afford to volunteer twice a week. It's all a different perspective and it's cost of living that's driving this unfortunately.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:01

Yeah, my first relevant experience role paid me 13,000 pounds a year, obviously is not a big amount of money and yeah, that's basically what my salary was until I got on training. All my band four roles were paying around that. But like you said, I didn't have any other expenses to find. I think my first job where I actually needed to drive was when I was a home carer. I think that paid me five pounds, 50 an hour. I loved that work and I actually learned so much about dignity, about respect, about forming lasting kind of relationships that allow me to do my job in a way that really honours the person receiving that care and I would not have been able to do that job, which I see as a gateway job to then my relevant experience roles. Had I not had my driving licence, my children still find it hilarious that mommy was a home carer.

(: 09:04

They're like, oh, you work people's bums. Yeah, I did and I'm proud to have done it. I loved it and I would if I needed to, I'd go and do it again because I learned so much and it was such a lovely way of having relationships with people because I wasn't just doing it for the money because I think often a lot of the roles that we do do, you're not driven by money. If you're driven by solely money, you go off and do something in a corporate industry, not in kind of mental health. So yeah, I guess for me there are benefits to being able to drive. So when I've been in community settings, even when I've been an assistant, when I was working as a rehab assistant in Milton Keynes, I was able to get out to the disadvantaged communities where I was working.

(: 09:51

If I'd had to wait for buses, I might've seen two clients in a day. There are advantages and at that point actually Milton Key's Council used to pay me as an essential car user, so I would get an amount of money per month to keep my car on the road and to pay towards my insurance and also I would then get my mileage paid as well. So I think other places where they have essential car users probably do still give essential car user allowances, but I appreciate even having being able to have that car to begin with. My cars were not shiny, they were not fancy. Even now I drive a car that is a 62 plate, so I'm not driven by shiny really super modern cars. My first car was a citron axe, an Reg Citron axe. It was tiny, it was like a little box.

(: 10:47

I shared it with my brother. But again, like you said, if your family don't already have a car or if there isn't a sibling that's already got a car you can share. Getting that first car that cost 900 pounds at the time is a barrier. But then that said, my mum recently sold her car and it was still in working condition. It was still really good. It was probably a similar age to mine. She sold that for 700 pounds and that would've made an ideal first car. So comparatively, and that was a way nicer car than my first car was. Comparatively, there are still options for first cars which are more affordable. My children watch a lot of YouTube and they're like, well, I'd like my first car to be a bagassi, and I'm like, yeah, that's not really that realistic. So I guess it's thinking about what staying within our means.

(: 11:44

It's really tricky. I don't have a nicer car because I don't want to be spending 60, 70 grand or paying 500 pounds a month every month towards a car. Does that make sense? I like to kind of own what I have and for the moment this is the best I can do and it's still reliable. I think there's a lot to be said for having a car that is reliable and keeping with that rather than buying something that you don't know the history of. But yeah, there are benefits to being able to drive and being able to get yourself to these work environments. I grew up in a rural location. If I'd only been able to get where I could walk, my options for progressing in psychology would've been that much more reduced.

Jake (: 12:34

Going to the first thing that you said is you're going into this career not for the money. I get paid weekly on a Friday and I woke up and saw this morning I got paid and it's like, oh, I've got paid for that. It is a weird feeling because when you're working, you're not thinking by looking at the clock and what am I getting paid this hour? How I was thinking when I was working as a sales assistant, I was like, okay, another hour I get whatever the wage is when I'm there working in the school, I'm just like, okay, I've just done the day and you're thinking about what you are getting out of it, what you are doing for them. It's a completely different experience about the car stuff, which is obviously the most important part of this. I think the hardest part to understand there's a difference between the generations is a fact of the prices adjusted to inflation and the cost of living climate at the moment.

(: 13:36

Because although you went for a car that's not flashy and just got the job done, there's no incentive in me that wants a flashy car and there's nothing in me that goes, well, I want a big daddy, I want an hourly, I want a this eighties. I just want a car to be able to drive to be able to work or get about and have a bit of freedom. And a lot of what's going on is we don't have that freedom because what car was 900 pounds now is worth more than that unless it breaks down tomorrow, the day after you buy it because the prices of the stuff inside the car itself is worth more than that and it's not just for car price, it's the insurance, it's for lessons and the tests.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 14:25

Have you priced up insurance? How much is insurance for a young driver at the moment?

Jake (: 14:31

So I've looked up the statistics on this because this is a thing that I do. I know it's so much money, but I can't afford and I would love to drive and I've always liked cars as a kid, but I don't want to look at it because depressing, I just hear my friends talk about it. I'm like, yeah, I've got no chance. But the statistics say since Covid it's gone up 84%, the price of insurance lessons after Covid add up to 2000 pounds. If you have 45 of them, which is what the website was said, that average was, I don't want to look into it more because it frightens me and it makes me feel a bit unsure about my future and the total cost of the first year of driving of 17 to 21 year olds is 7,600 pounds a year compared to 1,285 pounds, which was in 1985.

(: 15:30

And this is the hardest part to comprehend. We think of 1,285 pounder, that's a comparison, but adjusted to inflation, that's 3,234 pounds even though adjusted to inflation, it's worth more money. That's still 135% increase in price of a first year of a car. And that's aside from the other costs of living that's going on, everything's more expensive to get food to go out. I personally can't afford to go out very often at all. It'd have to be once every two weekends and that's not going out drinking. I can't do that for my health that's going out for a meal. That's the difference in lifestyles.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:13

I hadn't considered insurance and actually yes, privileged me. My dad paid my insurance, so bought us the car to share and paid for the insurance and I do appreciate that is not everyone's reality. What I would say is my insurance has always been about 400 pounds. It still is now, and it was then at that time when I first had to take it on myself, that was like, oh, how much? That's a huge amount of money, but it's roughly stayed the same. I dunno why. I dunno why, but it always has. Yeah, it is a lot of money. I guess similar to the kind of rental argument and the house deposit argument, it is a big chunk of money to be able to find as a deposit. Even for renting, you've got to be able to pay sometimes a couple of months upfront as your deposit. How do you begin to be able to accumulate that sort of reserve, especially if you are for health reasons only able to work?

Jake (: 17:18

Yeah, I'm literally baffled. I dunno myself what the answer is. I just work as hard as I can, do everything I can do with my time and see where I end up.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 17:28

You are not the average applicant because when we were speaking just before we hit record, you shared with me that you ended up with a first class degree, which really began to make you think, oh, maybe this could be my career. Clearly I've got a passion and an aptitude for that and now it feels like a barrier to be able to get these jobs and progress onto becoming a trainee because many courses do have an essential requirement that you take your driving licence with you to the course and in order to even be seen for interview, you have to submit your driving licence. And some people have been turned away from doctorate interviews because they either forgot their licence, their licence was invalid or they didn't have a licence. This changes lives.

Jake (: 18:22

There's a lot of context to go through here. Even where I work now, there's still pokes every so often of have you got your driving licence? Why don't you drive here? It's so difficult to get here, but at the end of the day, I don't need to, I'm the first person there every single day. I've never been delayed. I take the earlier bus and I've still had that judged against me that I don't have a licence, therefore reliability or whatever. If it rubs off on motivation, which it does a lot on younger people and it rubs off as a lack of motivation, but I know that's the furthest from the truth. So before I went to university, I've had no idea what to expect from it because that's just not my background. My parents didn't go to university, my mom did when she was 40 to do a teaching degree, which is completely different, but we had no understanding of what to do.

(: 19:17

I have a twin sister who went to University of North. I went to Northland Trent, I just went there. I liked the city. I didn't know, I knew it was BPS accredited, so I was like, yeah, okay, I'll do this. And I've always had a very big passion for psychology and that's what I focused on my whole life and I was like, if I do this, I'm going to get a job in it. After that's wasn't the straightforward case. I went months unemployed, which is really depressing to go through, especially when I've had so many personal battles to go through, which are different to others. I've had multiple surgeries during the first year of my university life, which was combined with Covid as well. So I wasn't even in the accommodation for more than let's say two, three months when that was supposed to be a massive experience and the quality of education was very poor.

(: 20:13

It was all virtual and I had to learn what I missed in first year in second and third year it felt like. So I got through first year with a two one second year, everything started to open up again in Covid but still on by learning I missed a lot of, I get more out of being somewhere than learning virtually, which I think most people do. And I still had holes from the first year I had health issues, which made me very vulnerable to being ill all the time when everything got opened up again and my mental health completely declined and deteriorated, which just got on top of everything. I had symptom flareups and other health conditions. It was really, really, really a hard and low moment. I think my health conditions aside, I think a lot of people went through that in first and second year and the same start to uni in 2020 because of the experience.

(: 21:13

And then in third year, between second and third year I worked as a research assistant at the uni despite not doing as well as I wanted to and having to have it extensions because of my illnesses. In second year I worked as a research system which completely changed everything. I was actually physically there at Reunion. I felt part of it and it really increased my motivation again and brought back my life for what I was doing. Even though it was there, it wasn't because I didn't feel part of anything. So third year I started really well as well, doing well on my assignments, really enthusiastic. Then all of a sudden I needed a major surgery for my knee. I was unable to walk around at all at that point, but then led me to think, oh, I was only going to take a month or two to recover.

(: 22:00

I just have to catch up. I have all my life, which didn't happen. The exhaustion from it because of the intensity of a surgery was incredible that I had to have my year extended into the following year and virtually self-learn everything myself again, first and second year, that was really mentally draining and exhausting. But yeah, I still got through and I got a first I was like, yes, all this stress and issues are relieved from my life. I'm going to have a job. I'm not going to be financially stressed. I'm going to be asked to bring my experiences to help as support other people experiences that span far beyond just these university experiences. I don't want to downplay them at all. Obviously I'm not getting into 'em, but they're much more intense than that and be able to share it with other people. And I was like, I put in my applications that it's been a bit of a struggle and I've done well and surely that I looked really good.

(: 22:59

I got a first. What more could they ask for? It turns out what more they ask for is you to sacrifice having any money and being unemployed for months and I love volunteering, I do it, but you're required to as well. Otherwise you're stuck. A lot of people are stuck and they have to look at other careers no matter how passionate they are at psychology. So now I feel in a position where I can start applying to assistant psychologist jobs, I was really most faces. I was like, yes, I'm finally there. I can do it. I've got a good chance now my degree will mean something because I've got the experience to back up that I can do this stuff properly. And then when I opened it, nearly every single post said, you're required a driving licence. I was like, where's this come from? It came completely out of the blue.

(: 23:48

I understand the purpose of it if you need to drive to people's homes and it's in multiple locations, but some of it, it was just put on there as a luxury. It wasn't a necessity and that luxury, I don't think the people making a post have the understanding of how discriminatory that is to really put there to people say in my situations or other backgrounds where they've had to take massive pay cuts and I've done everything they can. I have the motivation that they have the love for psychology but they can't access it. And I've been in group interviews still for other jobs as other people where things can be measured that aren't just how much money you have. That's not really, you can't tell that from a job interview. So it can look like a lack of motivation, but it is just very upsetting to have that motivation and drive and work as hard as you possibly can and then just put a barrier in front of it. I cannot think of how to fund a driving licence or driving without having to cancel my volunteering and my work. Now I work five days a week somewhere else in somewhere I'm not interested in and I'm motivated to work corporate work for me. I'd be depressed. I need to give back to people, I need to help people heal and that gives myself energy and it is not there. So there really needs to be a rethink on just being a bit more conscious of what that driving licence requirement does.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:26

And I think conversations like this begin to start shaping that narrative so that it's an updated narrative rather than one that worked in the eighties and the nineties and the two thousands. We are now in actually a very different stage of existence. My lovely nephew, he is 22 and he doesn't yet drive, like you said, the pandemic really had got in the way of that, but also it is more expensive. But because he was raised in a city, he's never really needed to do that. Both of his parents drive grandparents drive and can kind of pick him up or take him places or he just Ubers, maybe this is the rise of Uber has meant that the things that you can't get Lyfts for and even as your friends begin to be able to drive, they all give you lifts places as well. But I understand that there might be a changer coming as well with whether when people first pass their test, whether they're allowed to have people five years either side of their age in the car and if you've heard of that, to increase safety and reduce road deaths is the kind of hope for that agenda.

(: 26:36

But he doesn't drive. I do wonder he does an Uber, I wonder if Uber has almost enabled people to miss out the middleman of driving themselves. But if that's something that you had to do, if you had to visit a client's home, you probably could get an Uber and it would be quicker than you getting yourself there and try to work out where to park. And actually in terms of money, sometimes you can get an Uber for five pounds, it's like 15, 10 minutes away or whatever. It doesn't necessarily need Now I think about it to be just you driving your own car, does it, and I guess what a course wouldn't want is all of the trainees turning up and none of them being able to drive. But if there were a couple that couldn't drive, then there are always placements where literally you get yourself to point A and at the end of the day you leave again from point A and you are saying, actually I'd be fine to do that because I get buses, I can do that and I'll be there early actually because I'm going to get the earlier bus to make sure that I'm not late because this work really matters to me.

(: 27:49

But when I was a trainee, I worked in a couple of different placements where I had split posts. So I was at Coventry University and my employing base was in Warwick Hospital and my placement one half of the placement was in Leamington Spa, which I appreciate if you dunno these places, it doesn't mean anything to you. And then the other one was in Stratford upon Aven and I lived in Coventry. So there's a big patch that I might've been going to and from that would've been unaffordable, especially at peak times to be getting an Uber, even if Ubers existed then. So you would really struggle to do that placement, Jake, without being able to drive. But were there other placements that were just based in one cam service for example? Yeah, there were. And could you have potentially been offered one of those? Yes, possibly.

(: 28:45

I guess the problem is because it is so embedded in the system that so psychology staff can drive and will drive I guess the placements and the job opportunities that's come about. But I guess maybe thinking about solutions, maybe pool cars are an idea, so you wouldn't then have to own and ensure your own car. You would be have to be able to drive. But if there was a pool car, which is where they're owned by the employer and you book those out and you take them for example to a client's house or you take it to a business meeting and then you bring it back and put it in the cage, that might be more inclusive as an opportunity, but you would still have to be able to drive.

Jake (: 29:32

Yeah, of course that would be the perfect ideal world, but it'd be great for me with the Uber stuff. You just took the thoughts out of my head. That's exactly what I was thinking. I live literally on the border of London and Sur, so I use TFL and I can get nearly everywhere with it. But say a lot of things can be like an hour and a half journey. But if you look at a drive it's 25, 30 minutes and now I look at Uber and it's about 20 pounds for that journey. So if that means I can get there, then I can. And it's cheaper than owning a car. And it's not about cutting out the middleman of having to drive or not of literally can I afford this? Yes or no, I can't afford a car, but I can afford 20 pounds every so often. Or say if I was working on the wage of an assistant psychologist, I could afford it every day to be there. There. I want to job not because of the financial reasons like we said.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 30:33

Yeah. And I think there are provisions for people that are legally not allowed to drive people that are partially cited for example, or registered blind. Of course they wouldn't be expected to drive and they can still become psychologists, but there aren't yet as we're aware or provisions for people that are physically able to drive. But maybe this is the conversation that needs to be had that we can't group everybody into the same category anymore. And I know there was Kirsty op from Love It or list it and what other stuff does she do stuff with Phil, she got in trouble for suggesting that young people basically should just cancel their Netflix subscriptions and not pay for gym memberships or whatever in order to be able to get themselves on the property ladder. And that was very publicly discriminated about and still is the content of memes.

(: 31:35

And I don't want to be the psychology equivalent for Kirsty op and I like Kirsty op, but this is what she'd said. She said what she said. I still think driving is a useful skill and as I said on that post, it's allowed me to do so many wonderful things, Jake. It is allowed me to, on my gap six months, go off and drive in New Zealand and drive on the largest sand island in the world, Fraser Island in Australia. And again, even being able to backpack is privileged. I get that. But I saved for six months to be able to do that. But even being able to drive my children to health appointments, I had two caesarean sections and I've also broken my arm and those periods of not being able to drive because I can usually drive, I found really, really hard. I did actually download and use Uber for the first time during that time when I broke my arm, which was a couple of years ago.

(: 32:38

And yeah, I use Ubers all the time now, whereas until I couldn't use my car, I didn't. So I do still use Ubers, but I use my car, the Joey Tribiani episode on friends when he can't do what the Joey Tribiani does and then when he is allowed to, does he go back to his old ways? Yes, he does. But I like having Uber as this should be sponsored by Uber this episode, but it's not. I like having that as an ability to be able to use as and when needed, but I do like and need be able to get my children to their swimming lessons and get myself to the gym and live independently and get my shopping. I find it all easier with a car. So I do work from home these days, but great majority of the jobs I've had, even as a qualified clinical psychologist, in fact my first job was working in two settings.

(: 33:38

One was about 15 miles from the other. So they both needed that needed me to be able to drive. And then when I worked for the NHS, I worked in a peripatetic manner across four or five different sites on four days a week. So I needed to be able to drive for that as well. So yeah, I don't think there's an easy suggestion, but this is a start. This is a conversation about why can't we give people fixed workplaces I guess, so that it makes it more accessible for those that don't drive either because they can't or because they don't choose that for themselves

Jake (: 34:18

Or give them time to be able to learn whilst they're there. A lot of it is such little training for people that haven't been given the opportunity to be trained or experience these things. And I'm also sure if I cancelled my 30 pound gym membership that I'd be able to own a house, the thing that balances my mental health, my physical health and my social life, given that I can't afford to do anything else. I'm sure that's the answer.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:45

That's why it didn't, it didn't go down well. It didn't go down well. This isn't frivolous things that people are having. It is actually what makes life livable and enjoyable and culpable with. So yeah, I do agree with that.

Jake (: 35:03

And those three pound lattes give me a workspace and a coffee shop. I'm sure if I cancelled that out, it's just life changing. I dunno why I didn't think of that myself.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 35:15

I think it was lattes and avocados I think she said about at the time. Yeah, it didn't go down well, but thank you so much for contacting me. Thank you so much for holding me accountable. I'm not perfect, but I am willing to admit that and every day should be a school day. We should be aware of our vulnerabilities, we should be aware of when we come off like an US because I want to make sure that I'm being as inclusive in what I say and what I do. So I'm always wanting to, in terms of my intersectionality, be more aware of my blind spots, but also aware of the fact that I am 43 and I'm having a different experience. I had a different experience of my youth than you were having of yours and maybe the two are not comparable in terms of expecting you to be able to drive.

Jake (: 36:07

I would say it's not comparable to the youth of five years ago, which is even harder to comprehend. And I have a few more comments as well. Really, I think there's a big issue with the cost of living and perspective on young people. Like the saw you're saying with the guy from Fred who got the stuff taken away from him that would made him him. We haven't had the stuff given to us to make us us. So I think there's a bit of survivorship bias in all of this and we're trying so desperately to be able to have those things or know what these things are, but we haven't had the opportunity.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 36:43

Absolutely. I think had I not been able to go out and do all of the things and really lived my life in those formative years, it would've felt like I'd had my wings clipped and so we thought the pandemic was going to be a few weeks or a few months and actually we've just had a five-year anniversary. There's still covid around now this has a lasting impact, impact on people

Jake (: 37:12

We tend to forget because it is basically a traumatic event across everyone, but it's easier to forget that it didn't happen or it wasn't so bad everyone did that. We don't acknowledge how it's affects life right now economically or socially. It's completely changed everything.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 37:33

I think people are more aware of the impact it had on Covid babies. So the Covid babies are now in reception year and there's more of a dialogue around the impact that Covid had on child rearing and child socialisation actually, I think the impact it's had on people your age is needing more air and more conversation and I hope that this forms part of that narrative

Jake (: 38:00

And I hope it really opens up a few eyes on job posts about why there might be missing things. It's not missing because of us, it's missing because it's not there. Anything aside, I can't think of how I could have worked any harder in any given moment of time when I spend my whole life working hard, that passionate, if I have any gaps anywhere, I can promise you it's not anything to do with how motivated or capable I am. And I think that's something to acknowledge, especially when there's other applicants that might have not gone through the same things that they have it, it's likely because they've had the support to be able to do that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 38:41

Yeah, your aptitude and your perseveration shines out of you, so I think you will get to be going to great places. You are already on that journey, but it's what organisations can do to flexibly include and accommodate you. That's going to be really important. I feel like my children are always telling me that I need to say this, and so I feel like with perhaps one of my youngest guests to date that it might be my time to say this, they want me to point and say, what do you think? If you are watching this on YouTube, comment below. And they say, I never point, so I'm pointing children. But yeah, I would love anyone watching or listening to this to let us know in the comments either as a question on Spotify or as a review or a comment on social media or if you're watching on YouTube in the actual comments, has this resonated with you? What do you think about what Jake and I have been talking about today? Thank you so much for your time, Jane. It's been a really, really interesting and thought provoking conversation and I hope it's felt okay for you too.

Jake (: 39:54

Thank you very much. It really is, and I'll say as having a twin and obviously that means we have the same financial background. There's that privilege there financially, but haven't had to struggle overly in terms of safety and security. So for example, my sister's been able to save up and she's in Australia at the moment, albeit she's not driving, she's in Australia at the moment having a great time. It's just how life is in a psychology career path that she has opportunity to do that and work in a coffee shop for a few months before to afford it.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:29

Well, what I would say is if your sister can't drive, Fraser Island is amazing, so make sure she makes a friend who can drive and tell her to go to Fraser Island. It's so much fun. I

Jake (: 40:39

Will do.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:41

Thank you for your time, Jake.

Jake (: 40:43

Thank you.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 40:44

Oh, thank you so much to our guest for today, Jake, wishing you the very best in your career, Jake, and I think we're going to be watching this space. Like I said, if you've got ideas for future podcast episodes, please do feel free to come and pitch those to me either directly from my website, www aspiring psychologist.co.uk or come and follow me on social media where I am, Dr. Marianne Trent, everywhere. If you love these energised conversations that really help you to be shaped and to grow and to be developed, then I think you will really, really enjoy the Aspiring Psychologist membership. It's your chance to get up close and with qualified psychologists to really help your development. You can join for just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term, and when you join, you can gain access to the replay content for the last three years.

(: 41:46

It really is great. We are doing brilliant things and we are getting people assistance, psychologists interviews and jobs, research assistant posts and trainee interviews and places to, there's so much to celebrate. Please do come on board and if you decide you're going to join for a longer time period upfront, six months for example, or one year, you also get one-to-one time with me as well too. If you'd like to come and join the free Facebook group, you can do, it's the Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr. Marianne Trent, and that is the exclusive home of Marianne's Motivation and Mindset sessions, which happen each Friday morning. You can also check out my books, the Aspiring Psychologist Collective and the Clinical Psychologist Collective too. Thank you so much for being part of my world. The next episode will be along on YouTube from 10:00 AM on Saturdays and wherever you get your podcasts from 6:00 AM on Mondays. Take care if you're looking to become psychologist,

Jingle Guy (: 42:49

This podcast.