Being a parent whilst training as a Psychologist: The Highs and Lows with Rose Dunstan

(: 00:28

(01:45): I need to apologise that my audio is quite quiet, um, in, in today's podcast. Um, I'm not quite sure why, so you might just need to turn it up ever so slightly, but have adjusted the jingles so that they're a little bit quieter. So they won't, um, suddenly deafen you. Um, yeah, I dunno what happened there, but, um, needed to make sure that you could hear both myself and rose throughout. So I hope that you will find that. Okay. Um, also need to say that I only spotted when I was editing that I'd accidentally used the wrong frame on YouTube. Um, it does say aspiring psychologist membership rather than aspiring psychologist podcast, but Rose's details are all correct. And I, I will admit that's the only side I checked. Um, cuz I assumed it was right, but as we all know, assume makes an ass of you and me.

(: 02:35

(03:30): Um, but I hope you find it a really useful episode. It is a slightly longer episode than usual because there was so much to say. Um, so yeah, cozy up, um, you know, give yourself a chunk of time. Cause I think it is getting on for just over 50 minutes, five it's, zero. So quite a lot longer than usual, but all good stuff and such important personal and professional debates in psychology. So this is mainly taken perhaps only taken really from a female perspective. I would love to be able to have similar debates, um, with, um, someone who identifies as male, um, about becoming a parent on the course or starting training, um, you know, with children or child already. So if that describes you and you'd like to come on the podcast, then do please make contact with me, but otherwise, um, just enjoy, um, and, you know, have an open mind if you're not yet a parent. Um, and this, you know, just really interesting conversation, um, between myself and rose. So hope you'll find it useful and I'll catch you again at the end. So I am joined by rose, um, today. Hi rose. Thank you so much for joining me. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Rose Dunston (: 04:47

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. Um, my name is rose Dunston. I am a third year trainee, um, on the doctorate of clinical psychology training. Um, and I'm also the mother of a, a little boy who's just turned four.

Marianne Trent (: 05:04

Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me and yeah, like four year olds, our bags of fun, but they are also high energy. Um, and you know, take a lot from you. So could you tell us a little bit about, um, about your journey to psychology before we start to think about your little boy? Um, if that's okay.

Rose Dunston (: 05:26

Yeah, sure. So you can probably tell from my accent that I wasn't born here. Um, I was born in Australia and that's where I did my undergrad. Um, so I did that full time, um, in psychology. Um, and I also worked actually really fell my feet. I worked for a really lovely mental health charity full time alongside my undergraduate degree. Um, and I say it was lovely because it really like had a very strong ethos for recovery. Um, there were lot, you know, so lots and lots of peer support workers. Um, all of my managers had like lived experience of distress, um, or, and current and heard voices. Um, and so I worked there for about four years in various roles and including at the end doing a research assistant role, um, uh, and that was in a project to support voice hearers into the workplace.

Rose Dunston (: 06:22

And I think part of the other reason why I really enjoyed that role is that they brought in lots of external trainers and lots of them came from the UK. So they brought over like Ellen and Longden and Rufus may Jackie Dylan, Ron Coleman. And these are sort of like lots of the names that you hear sort of in mental health or in psychosis, um, from this country. And I, I guess that's sort of what drew my attention to maybe moving here. Um, so I, I moved to England with my husband and, um, it was meant to be for a short period of time and I thought I would go home and train in Australia, but then I just sort of fell in love with the country. And, um, when I, yeah, so once I moved here, I had sort of very similar roles. Um, I worked for a charity, um, where I managed a high support residential service for people with suffer inverted and persistent mental illness.

Rose Dunston (: 07:17

So just people with experiences of psychosis or, um, uh, yeah, I guess childhood trauma, lots of complex trauma. Um, and I did that for quite a long time and, um, I sort of also managed some unemployment services to support people into work. And I think I got to a stage where I was, you know, I'd just been really loving all of my jobs. I'd been growing a lot. Um, and I, but I felt like my learning started to plateau and it it'd always been in the back of my mind that I would apply for clinical psychology training. So I think once I realized I was gonna live here forever and my learning started to plateau in these other jobs, that's when I sort of turned my science, um, to training. Um, and I completed a master's here, which I did alongside a full time job and then applied for my first AP job. And that was in a, um, neurodevelopmental assessment service for children. Um, and, and then , I had a child and, and I got into training. So it was sort of perhaps quite a different journey to other people. I was never in a rush. It was for me, I think I felt like I'd always end up as a clinical psychologist, but I just found myself in, in jobs that I just really enjoyed. And I was very passionate about, I was learning a lot. Um, and so I sort of meaned my way here, I guess.

Marianne Trent (: 08:46

Well done to you. Um, I was speaking to someone earlier that was saying, you know, I can't believe I get paid to do this, cuz I would actually do it for free. And that's when you know that this is a career that is just a bit of you, isn't it?

Rose Dunston (: 09:00

Absolutely. Yeah. Although the pay helps oh,

Marianne Trent (: 09:04

The, the pay most definitely helps.

Rose Dunston (: 09:06

Most definitely helps. I get very challenging otherwise.

Marianne Trent (: 09:09

Yeah. Just before we start thinking about children, um, I know that I have got people that do listen to the podcast in Australia and I know that a question I will be asked if I don't ask you is how it worked, you know, moving from Australia to the UK and whether you were then eligible to apply for the funded places. Um, just that sort of question if you're comfortable answering it.

Rose Dunston (: 09:30

Yeah, certainly. Um, it, so first of all, you need to like sort, be aware of whether your degree would be accredited here. So I think both countries are a little bit like our degrees are better than the other persons. Um, so it is, you need to look into, you need to make sure you have the full four year degree in Australia to be able to convert it here. But, um, by the BPS, um, for me, I have British heritages, so I already had a UK passport even before I decided to move here. So it made moving to the country quite simple. Um, but you do need to have lived here for, I think it's three years to get the residency and that's a continuous three years. So you can't have like sort of been outta the country for too long. During that period, there are sort of set timeframes. Um, I think it's three years, you need, need to double check that. Um, and, and once you are considered a resident of this country, you can apply. Um, I think courses will look out though for, you know, they want people who are gonna stay here. So they will, I think, probably look out for that a little bit, um, a commitment to staying and working in the NHS. Yeah.

Marianne Trent (: 10:46

Lovely. Thank you so much. Um, perhaps slight deviation, but I know that that will be a question that I am asked, um, because it's important, isn't it, especially the variability and diversity in our workforce. Um, and that, you know, I do believe, and I've said before that I've got the best job in the world. Why wouldn't someone in a different country know that and think I'd love to do that.

Rose Dunston (: 11:07

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I can relate to that. .

Marianne Trent (: 11:10

So, um, before we, um, started recording, we were speaking a little bit about your experience of applying, um, to the doctorate. Um, would you be okay telling us a little bit about what that was like and where, um, baby fell, um, in that if that's okay.

Rose Dunston (: 11:27

Yeah, sure. So I think, I mean, one of the reasons why, I guess I'm here and I'm, I guess quite passionate about this is because I agonized over the decision to have a baby and I, I can't under school that enough, like it really was agony. Um, because there are these really dominant narratives. I think that you can't get onto training is incredibly hard and that having any sort of difference, um, just makes it harder, I think, and having a child would mean, I guess, that you might be discriminated against by courses, but also that you can't get the adequate experience that you need to get onto training. Um, and then even if you happen to get on that, you can't complete training with children because it is just so incredibly challenging. Um, and I, I sort of, I heard that very strongly at, in the AB complete absence actually, of having any narratives or stories of people who had completed training with children.

Rose Dunston (: 12:28

I dunno. I really felt that. And, um, I, yeah, I was really in a place where it's like, what if, what if they're never good? Are they, but what if I dedicate myself to training and I finish and I am unable to have children or what if I have a child? And that means that I can never get into training. Um, and I think because there's two very uncertain things, having a child, you have no idea what your life would look like with a child. And then, so you can't sort of plan and think how I could make that work. Cause you don't really know. And then training, you just don't know that you, like, you don't know what the experience will be like, but also you don't know if you'll get on or when you'll get on, will I get on when I'm 32 or 35 or 38 or um, and what does that mean for my fertility?

Rose Dunston (: 13:17

So, um, I really struggled with it and I, I guess I just started applying, I, um, applied after I had got my first AP job and I, and I did have the baby and, um, I applied before I knew that I was pregnant. So, um, during my, when some of the interview season came up and I, I was offered three interviews, uh, I was sort of eight months pregnant. Um, and my son was born prematurely. So that meant that actually the day, the day he was born, I think I had an interview or maybe it was the day after. I'm sorry, obviously couldn't attend. Um, and then, um, I was quite poorly after he was born and I was in hospital for a week and then I had an interview two days after I'd gotten out of hospital. And, um, and I attended that interview and I think on reflection, that seems actually ridiculous.

Rose Dunston (: 14:16

like a really, um, most silly thing to do. But I think again, there was this narrative that like, even if you get an interview this year, you might not get one next year, so you have to apply, oh, so you have to go, I have to do it. Um, and I did do it, having not slept for 10 days and it didn't go well , I mean, well actually, do you know what to be fair? The interview went well, but there was, there was a written component that I just, my brain just wouldn't function for. Um, and then I had an interview about a week after that, which I did attend and I, and I got on a reserve list for that one. Um, but I actually think another probably important part of that motivation to attend is also financially. So I think, um, I, at that stage, my financial situation was such that I thought I might have to work in about six months anyway.

Rose Dunston (: 15:05

Um, and part of my rationale was, well, I could work as an AP and after I paid for my childcare and my travel I'll bring home about 50 so 50 pounds a week. Um, or I could go back to a more demanding job, which would be training, but least I'd have enough money to sort of on. And I think that's probably, I think one of the big barriers I think to having to having children when you're trying to get onto the Declan is the cost of childcare is, is just eye wateringly high. Um, it will be almost your entire income as a, um, so I guess that was the process. And then, so I didn't get on that year. And then I applied again the following year and I got two interviews and, and two offers. Um, and by that stage, my son was hero,

Marianne Trent (: 16:00

Oh, well, well done to you. And honestly, you've my hero attending interviews for doctorate training whilst in the fog of being a very new mother, um, kudos to you and also getting a reserve list place that year. Like you are my hero so well done to you, or that can I ask when you were applying the next year, whether you, you know, whether you considered more family friendly courses or whether you considered any factors around, you know, having your son or was it purely the traditional like sound of that course and you know, I've met other trainees, um, et cetera.

Rose Dunston (: 16:37

Um, I didn't change well, it's really hard to get any sort of sense of who is family friendly from the information on the clearing house. And in fact, I don't think any of the courses appear family friendly. I don't think it's mentioned anywhere. Um, I've certainly never heard of courses that like invite parents to attend or, or speak to it in, in the information that they put out before you apply. So I was sort of, it was a little bit blind actually. Um, it was more about what I thought the ethos would be. Um, but actually having said that I then actually attended, so the two interviews that I attended, um, that year I actually attended one where I think they made it very clear. Actually it wasn't even covert. They made it very clear. I think that they would not support parents, um, to get through training or carers.

Rose Dunston (: 17:29

It, there was very much sort of a spiel at the beginning, um, that made it clear that you, you had to do this on your own and we weren't gonna make adjustments for you. Um, and my heart said it was so devastating. I remember I finished that interview and I walked out the door and my first thought was, I did really well today. I think I'm gonna get an offer. And my second thought, which I followed about two seconds later was, and I cannot accept it. Um, I just, I knew that I would have a miserable time. I knew that I probably wouldn't even get through it. Um, and then the following week, I did this other interview at my, my training course that I'm on and it couldn't have been a more different experience. Um, in my interview they asked me, uh, how are you going to, like, what are your thoughts and how you might manage, um, being a parent and doing this this course. And I could speak to that. And that was fine. They seemed quite warm. And they sort of said that they do try to take that into account. And there are some adjustments that they can made and they explained what they were. And, um, yeah, it was, it was such a relief. Um, and that, of course, I, I got the two offers and I knew exactly where I needed to be. Um, so it was actually very helpful really in the end, but it was also, you know, quite heartbreaking as well.

Marianne Trent (: 18:57

Thank you. Yeah. It's so important to be treated as a human and someone that matters in this process, not just a number who can be so easily replaced because you're, you're a person you've got a life, you know, you, you matter to lots of people and having you just scrape through or survive. That's not what we want. We want you to as much as possible thrive and really enjoy aspects of your training, if not the whole thing. Um, you know, but, uh, also thrive as a mother and to have enough resources left over at the end of a day or a week to feel like you're not just utterly exhausted and then you can be a parent as well.

Marianne Trent (: 19:33

Yeah. And I think also, you know, we, there's so much talk about widening access and the importance of, and I know parenting isn't a protect characteristic. It is maternity is sort of for the first, whilst you're pregnant and for a year after, but it's, it's not protected, but I think the experience parents bring a different experience to training and there is a knowledge and an experience that can enrich sort of the knowledge of the cohort and, and experiences on placement. So I, it, it is valuable and I think it is important to have different people represented on cohorts. Um,

Rose Dunston (: 20:11

It really is. There's a lady on my cohort who had, um, two children. There's a few people that had children, but, um, had two children and, you know, I just really valued her, her insight. Um, and she became sort of the mummy of our group as well, you know, and she was the first person I'd ever heard when she was talking about parenting her children, the first person I'd ever heard to say, I love you very much, but I do not like that behavior. And it was that separation for me, that was really useful. You know, you're not saying I don't like the child. You're saying I don't like the behavior. And so going on to a Cam's placement with that kind of real world practical experience was really useful for me. You know, I didn't have, I didn't really have many people that in my life who had children. So it was a really useful, you know, resource, like you said, this isn't, you're not a burden on the cohort. You're actually a real asset.

Marianne Trent (: 21:01

Yeah. Yeah. I think that too, uh, yeah, I think you get that from everyone in the cohort. Like everyone brings something slightly different and it, it just, it really enriches that I can think of so many people who are just popping to mind now who I've learned so much from, from those little comments in teaching or in that small tutorial group where they've just spoken to their experience of something. And it's, it's planted to see that you can draw on later. Um, yeah.

Marianne Trent (: 21:27

I love that. You're all part of a jigsaw that fits together to enrich each other's experience.

Rose Dunston (: 21:32

Definitely.

Marianne Trent (: 21:34

And as you were talking, I was thinking about maybe there's room here for courses to speak to this in there, you know, application information about, um, you know, becoming a parent, either during training, they try to dissuade that quite heavily don't they? Um, but people, it does happen, you know, people will have standard maternity leave within a normal fixed term contract, which is training, um, and will get, um, occupational maternity pay throughout training. Um, and it's quite common, I think in my experience for at least a couple of people per cohort, to have a baby at some point during that three year fixed period.

Rose Dunston (: 22:12

Yeah. We've had quite a few people, I think, um, in my cohort as well. And it, it really bothers me that there is a strong message where people are just wait from doing that. Um, I think people need to be able to make decisions about their own lives and if it feels like the right time to have a child, and there might be so many reasons for that, that people should be supported in those decisions. Um, I think, you know, as it is quite difficult to get onto training and it can take quite a long time. I think that the average age is about 28. And we're talking about often at the moment, women, um, I don't know that people actually consider the impact on people's fertility as well. Um, I, I do know that people who have had eggs frozen because they've been so worried.

Rose Dunston (: 23:00

I know even more who've looked into it, I myself looked into it. Um, and I was put off because the cost is just so high and it's incredibly intrusive. Um, and I think just because you want to get people through a course, like there's like this rule, like guess throughput must be the, the main KPI I imagine for EDU, um, NHS or education in England NH. Um, but actually, yeah, we are not just a number. We are human beings and if people want to have families and it feels like the right time, I think people need to be supported to do that. And, and I guess it is a question that comes up a lot. You'll see it on like the AP groups and what happens if I get pregnant, will I get kicked off the course? There are these real, like, I don't, I don't think people understand their employment rights that, you know, you are entitled to maternity leave. Um, you are entitled to five days of carers leave a year. You can apply for flexible working. Some courses I think would support that. Some probably would not, but you know, we are able to ask flexible working arrangements.

Marianne Trent (: 24:06

Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. And I was trying to reflect on my experience of training, um, and also my knowledge of having young children and I had my children after I'd qualified. But, you know, I know that when I was working in the NHS, there had to be some flexibility for suddenly, you know, you suddenly get a call on a Monday saying your child is getting the merit this weekend on Fri on Friday, can you come? And you're like, Oh

Marianne Trent (: 24:33

Wow, could you Anbu tip a bit earlier. Um, but then suddenly, you know, you are due into assembly on Friday to watch them get the merit. And I was trying to reflect how that would've been during training. Um, and Friday was our teaching day. So there really, I don't think would've been much flexibility. You know, they might have said I could have gone late, but if it had cropped up on a placement day, I think that my placement supervisors were very human. Um, so long as it wasn't gonna impact too much on the day, or if I was gonna then work from home a little bit that evening, I think it would've been supported. Um, because my placement supervisors definitely saw me as a human. Um, and they were all parents, I think. And I think that really helps with the context. Doesn't it. If someone gets the real struggles about being a parent, then they're more willing to be flexible and to yeah. To make up bespoke fit for you that helps you and helps the service.

Rose Dunston (: 25:27

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I've also had really wonderful experiences with my supervisors. They've all been incredibly supportive and in fact, one wasn't a parent, but I think she was quite open about that. And just really curious and was like, I might not understand things, please explain them to me. But she also, I know that she went out and asked her friends who had children and asked people about different experiences of children, of a similar age. And I valued that so much that she actually took the time to try to, to understand what my, you know, what my context looks like. And, and some of the demands that I do have on me. Um, so yeah, really excellent experiences. I, I, I do know that that's not universal, so I, I've certainly spoken to people who have had a really rough time trying to negotiate even very small changes. Like, can I work eight 30 to four 30 instead of nine to five? And even when there wasn't a specific service reason why that couldn't happen, it's just, no, we only do nine to five type responses. I wonder though, if that has changed, that was just pre pandemic. So I do wonder if maybe COVID has helped people to think and work more flexibly and, and to be more okay with flexible working. Um,

Marianne Trent (: 26:45

Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, when I was newly qualified, I was having to travel like 30 miles each way to get to work. And it was central Birmingham, which was a nightmare to get in and out of. And so, um, there was flexibility with them allowing me to work early and giving me a key to get into the building and giving me, you know, the fire safety codes, um, to, to turn off all the alarms and things. And I think if I, you know, cuz often you'll need to drop the kids at, at nursery at a certain time, won't you and then be on your way. And it just adds that bit extra time. So I think do ask for flexibility because if you don't, if you don't know

Rose Dunston (: 27:22

Yeah, absolutely.

Marianne Trent (: 27:24

Your supervisor ex supervisor sounds wonderfully holistic and actually really practicing what we preach with clients, but actually it's really important. We do that with our colleagues and with our workforce too.

Rose Dunston (: 27:35

Yeah, absolutely it, yeah. And like I said, that has been my experience. Generally people have been really, really supportive and really understanding and alongside my placement supervisors, my, I think my man, we call them a manager at my training course. I think places call the clinical tutor has been really wonderful as well. Um, really supportive. And I think I was made, I, I think before I felt like I would be seen as a burden or I'd be seen as like the trainee with extra needs and that's an annoyance to people like create extra paperwork or need more time or more meetings or whatever, but I don't think I've ever been made to feel like that. Um, there has been a real just like, yeah, acceptance, you know, I am a person I do have other needs and actually my role as mother is incredibly important. Um, and you know, are practicing what they preach, um, as psychologists that, you know, attachment and achievement and being there for your children is, is crucial.

Marianne Trent (: 28:39

It really is. It really is. But also as a parent myself, I know some, I know it's just a, some mad ride. It's some mad ride and training can feel that way as well. And then of course it's not just the placements, it's not just the, you know, the teaching days, there's also assignments. How have you found, you know, putting assignments around a, your work life, but also your family life?

Rose Dunston (: 29:03

Yeah. Uh, it was much easier pre COVID. So actually I think for the first six months of my course, I think I managed all of them. I managed things really well. I went in very, very organized. I, I did a lot of planning about sort of where I would live. I did relocate for the course where my son's nursery was try to like minimize stress at the beginning and end of the day. Um, and I worked on my assignments very early, so I was like really aware that he could get sick, you know, a week before an assignment is due. So I just started everything early and I really made very good use of all of my time. Um, so I think I finished my first assignment about two or three months early. I, you know, and that was working really well. And then COVID came and I actually became very ill.

Rose Dunston (: 29:53

I got, COVID sort of before the first lockdown I got long COVID I also have some chronic health problems and this sort of it all interacted and I became quite poorly. Um, so I've sort of been managing that alongside as well. And, and what it ended up meaning is I had to really evaluate what I could do. So what were my, what were these balls that I have in the air and which ones a glass and which one's are rubber. And I decided that my placement was a glass ball. You know, I had to really do the right thing by my clients and by my services, um, and focus on that work, which obviously my child and my family was a glass ball and these balls that can't drop it and I guess assignments became the balls that could drop. Um, and I just had some really open conversations with my manager and I, and all my deadlines were moved to places that felt more manageable. So I, I haven't been you working at the same rate as other people. I have more time to complete my assignments. It's really hard to say I, that really has been like framed around my health. Um, and I'm not sure how it would be framed if, if it was purely from a parenting perspective, I suspect that I would be supported to move deadlines, um, because of parenting, but maybe not the same extent. It's, it's really, it is quite difficult to say. Um, um, yeah, so yeah, basically I haven't kept done with my assignments is the short answer I'm getting there. But, um,

Marianne Trent (: 31:29

Do you tend to use your study days to do your assignments or is your little boy perhaps during COVID your little boy was there all the time? I dunno what the agreement was with your nursery. Some, some just shut didn't they?

Rose Dunston (: 31:41

Yeah, so his nursery did shut. Um, but for a few weeks, for a few weeks, we did this ridiculous system where like my husband and I would work between like 5:00 AM and 8:00 PM. So we both got a full day of work in and like did childcare amongst it. But fortunately we got him into a hub nursery. Um, but it was, you know, 40 minute drive away. We were doing like an hour and a half driving each per day to get him into some childcare. So we were very fortunate in that sense. We didn't completely lose childcare. Um, so yeah, I use my study days really effectively by, you know, it is my free time here is in childcare. I need to get things done. And I think, I think that's one of the things that being a parent is that you really, one of the challenges, a loss of flexibility, you know, you can't just work whenever you want, whenever suits you, whenever you feel like it, or you, some motivation kicks in, you have to work at set times, you know, around childcare. And, um, in some ways that's really helpful though. I think it does mean that I procrastinate less. Um, I get more things done in the blocks of time that I have, because I know it will feed into my time with my son. And that is huge motivation to just get things done. I, I don't want to be, you know, locked in an office all weekend, ignoring him. I, I want to spend my weekends with him. So, um, you know, there are pros and cons to

Marianne Trent (: 33:04

It. Definitely, definitely. Um, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think would be useful for us to talk about or anything to add in any of the areas that we've spoken about?

Rose Dunston (: 33:16

I guess maybe we could speak a little bit through maybe some of the, like the pros and cons of, of parenting, but I dunno if that might help during the decline, it might maybe bring it to life a little bit for people, um, who are thinking about having a child. Yeah. So I think maybe, Yeah. So I guess maybe for me, I think the pros, there are so many pros that, that are sort of, I never envisaged and, and I think one of them is just how much joy that is brought into my life from having a child, um, and the love and to, you know, be met with cuddles and have someone in your life. Who's just so, so happy to see you, um, is really nice. And I think how play forces you to be very mindful and very present, it calls you away from your worries. I said a lot of time, stomping in puddles and, uh, looking at airplanes and, and animals and flowers. And I just think it's really good for my mental health. And it is really good to pull me away from the stresses of the doctorate, perhaps. Um, I guess I've always already spoken a bit about time management and how that helps me there, but I think maybe also it really brings theories to life for me.

Rose Dunston (: 34:28

So for instance, attachment theory, I've always, it's not that complicated to understand, but I think when you have it right in front of you, it's sort of, you know, you can see like what a achievement looks like. This is a ch I'm attuned to my child right now, or, and you can see how like separation anxiety and things play out. Um, it brings like developmental psychology to life. You know, I always forget like the ING, the stages, and now I don't cause they're right there in front of me. Um, and perhaps it helps me a little bit with, um, on placement, you know, working with families. I remember when I worked in the neurodevelopmental assessment service, always being like quite puzzled, why parents couldn't remember milestones? Like when did your child sleep the night? They had no idea, like when they uttered their first it's how do this this's a lot happens in that time,

Rose Dunston (: 35:25

Perhaps for me now disclose that the tooth fair did forget to come in our house last night. Like, you know, it matters very much at that moment. Yeah. But then a split second later you are onto doing something else and you just forget and yeah, sometimes you do drop those balls and I love that idea of your, um, rubber balls and glass balls. I hadn't heard of that before, but I'm gonna keep that. But yeah, I'm hoping that the tooth fair doesn't turn out to be a glass ball and that that's, we're gonna be able to repair that rupture this evening

Rose Dunston (: 35:55

Concert ongoing consequences for, for forgetting, but it is this it's like the fallibility of parents. And, and I think when you're like working in camps, maybe, and you're thinking about homework class, that parents are supporting children with really being able to hold in mind, what everyone's experience is obviously different, but having an idea of some of the demands that might be on that parent and why they might not be able to support that child with that task. Um, you know, and it's like all those things, you don't need an experience to understand it, but I think it certainly helps perhaps.

Rose Dunston (: 36:27

Um, so there's some of the positives and I definitely, you know, some of the, we do this thing when we go to bed, each one I'm not going to bed, but my kids are, what was the favorite part of your day and what was the least favorite part of the day? And the kids both do theirs and then they'll ask me, um, and sometimes they all say, what's the funniest part of your day. And you're like, oh God, I really didn't have a very funny day today, you know? But it, it does force you to look for that gratitude, you know, and to look for the things that we could make different tomorrow and the things we could strive to do better, better, um, or in a different way. And I really love that, you know, um, just some of my joyful moments will be when my little boys like really in my face and the, the other day we were talking about teeth and how white, my little boy's teeth are, cuz they're like super white, aren't they? And he goes, mommy, you've got beautiful golden teeth. And I'm like, oh, you know, they think they're being really nice actually. Like we basically saying, I've got yellow teeth, thanks kid. So, you know, just adorable, adorable love. And you know, like you say, they're so pleased to see you. You make a chair when you walk through the door. Yeah.

Rose Dunston (: 37:27

Basically do have a little cheerleader who follows. I love your jumper, mommy. You're so kind. You're my favorite person. I love, you know, it's wonderful.

Marianne Trent (: 37:37

absolutely. Oh, oh, they do grow. They do grow up. But um, I've got two boys and they're both still very cuddly at the age of eight and almost six. They're adorable, but it is tricky. It's not all a bit of roses. Should we perhaps think about some of the, the difficult patches of parenting? I will just Chuck in there, the concept of sleep and now I'm just gonna let you get on with that.

Rose Dunston (: 38:05

What, well, actually, before I jump on that, could I add one more positive? Because I think it's one that slipped my mind, but I think it's of course you can

And I, it slipped my mind cause it's the absence of something. And I think for me, it's the absence of the distress I was feeling about not being a parent yet. And this, this sense of like, my life will start after my life will start after I get onto training or my life will start after I qualify and sort of always waiting for the future to have the things that you want. And I think I don't experience that distress anymore and it was very consuming. So I think I have a child and I'm on training. I've sort of got my cake and I got to eat it too. And, um, and that for me is probably the biggest positive actually.

Marianne Trent (: 38:50

That's so important. Thank you so much for, for including that it is it's exhausting when you're trying to make a decision, isn't it? And it can consume all of your thoughts. Um, so yeah, it's really important. And like you said, you know, it probably can take an average from graduating undergrad to starting clinical training about seven or eight years, but that places you at at least 28, 27, you know, 29 maybe. And like you said, that really is a key window in, in fertility journeys for, for people. Um, so it is a big deal. Um, it's not really something I'd thought about until, until this interview. Um, I started the course single actually, um, and met my partner in the second week of the second year. And so, you know, we got through it and then got married and then had a baby like a year later. But if I'd met him a few years before, then it might well have been the right time to have a child during training.

Marianne Trent (: 39:46

Yeah. I sort of do hope that by having these conversations, it's something that people might hold in mind a little bit more or cause I can see white people wouldn't think about that. So yeah, hopefully, yeah. It's just sort of the discussion that can start being had a little bit more.

Marianne Trent (: 40:01

Yeah. I think it's really important. Should we think about some of the, some of the, some of the abouts or some of the negative? Yeah, the tricky parts. Exactly. That,

Rose Dunston (: 40:10

I mean, sleep is a big one, isn't it? I, I, I'm quite lucky in that. I have had a child who, who does sleep quite well. Um, but you know, it's not consistent. And I think maybe the, the thing that struck me the most, even with all of my planning, um, I was not aware, but when small children attend nursery for the first time, they basically needed to develop an immune system. Um, so he was immune to nothing. Um, and for the first six months and not exaggerating when I say he got a cold either every week or every second week, he was always sick. Um, and there were minor illnesses. Um, but what it does mean is really it disrupts his sleep. He can be just a little bit miserable. Um, but also I don't have the best immune system. So I was probably picked up every second cold that he had. So I was also perpetually sick for six months. Um, and again, they were quite low level, I think one or two developed into infections, which, you know, but it is exhausting to sort of be unwell for such a long period of time. Um, parenting

Rose Dunston (: 41:19

Is, is hard enough without a cough that keeps them awake all night, you know?

Rose Dunston (: 41:25

Oh my gosh. And, and no, like they reflex it just, he coughs and he vomits and then he cries cause, and that happens a lot. Um, there's a lot of like late night laundry, um, and late night baths. Um, I think just children are just so unpredictable aren't they? Because there's the illness, but there's just other things crop up. They go through different state, developmental stages, they go through sleep regressions. Um, and it just happens when you, you don't expect it. And there is just never a good time. You know, people are like, oh, it's, oh, it's a bad time for that to happen. There is never a good time in your training for something to go wrong with your child. There will always be clinical work or important teaching or that important MRP meeting or something. Um, so it's just this constant juggle and there was a real, um, cognitive workload and an emotional workload that sort of goes with that.

Rose Dunston (: 42:20

You are constantly re juggling your schedule and your priorities and having to explain things to people and reschedule things. And, you know, it can be really exhausting. Um, I think for me, there have been huge, there have been quite big issues with childcare. So even, even though he could stay in childcare, um, throughout COVID, I dunno if people are aware there've been like a huge impact on the earlier sector COVID and Brexit has meant a mass loss of staff. Um, there are lots of agencies and for me that means that they have room closures really often. So probably there's been a period where nursery will just close for a day a week, um, or every second week. Um, and that I'm left with no childcare. Um, and I'm very fortunate. My husband has a very flexible job. So he, he picks that up when that happens. And I guess other people might have wider family who could support them. But I think being aware that childcare isn't as consistent as you might think it is. Um, and again, that's just a last minute juggle, let us, um, change our priorities.

Marianne Trent (: 43:28

Have you been able to form much of a mummy or parenting network around you? Cause I know that your parents are likely in Australia and the idea of raising my children without, um, you know, family around would be very, very tricky for me. How has that been for you?

Rose Dunston (: 43:43

It has been very, very tricky um, so yeah, I don't have any immediate family in England. Um, and even my extended family are far away. Um, and that is my husband. So it really is just the two of us. Um, and because I relocated from the court, I also moved away from my mother's group. I moved away some very close friends who were the people that I relied on last minute for support. Um, and then even throughout COVID, you know, we didn't have a bubble. It was literally just the two of us with our, our son. Um, so no, there aren't people I can call on last minute. So I know during okay. Pandemic, there was a time where like we were isolating, my son had a really high temperature. We were nearly out of Cal. There was a shortage in the shops around us and was like, I cannot get, like, I have no one I can call who can bring me and it, so it was really hard. Um, so I dunno that I'd recommend that I think thinking carefully about relocation and where you live and who is around you, because having people around, you know, is really important. And I think in my mind, I thought I'd be able to make those links, um, after I moved, but then of course the pandemic happened and I couldn't embed myself in my community. I couldn't, um, make those friends. So I guess I'm only just starting to do that. Now.

Rose Dunston (: 45:08

I would say you haven't got that currently, but my experience of, you know, being in a primary school is that I really hope you'll have that soon. Um, so I am part of, um, a year four group and a year one group, um, which is kind of, it formed off the back of a birthday party. Actually someone had to put together a birthday party list for the mums on WhatsApp. And after that, we decided to just all stay on it and it's been invaluable and also chats at the school gates and stuff has been really useful from preschool onwards that they've been in the same school, but, um, I have honestly made threat friends and people that definitely, you know, during COVID as well. Like, do you need anything? If people have been ill, I'll drop it around to you, you know, I'll do this, I'll go to the shops I'm going anyway.

Marianne Trent (: 45:54

And then all these like school collections that happen, oh, we're gonna send stuff to the Ukraine. And I was, um, off sick with, um, a sickness bug and I was like, I can't get to the supermarket. And someone else was like, well, I'll buy nappies for you and I'll drop them into school and just ping me the money on PayPal. And actually it does take a community to raise a child. And I personally have found that I've really built an important community in the other school parents, not even just the mums there's there's dancer have been really important in that as well. So I really hope that with your little boy about to start school, that you'll have some of that and you'll find some really supportive tribe members

Rose Dunston (: 46:29

Yourself. Thank you. That, that is my hope as well. And I, I guess we're just starting to do it a little bit with preschool and now that like the room is like, the nursery is just open for the first time we just allowed back in and can already sort of feel those differences. Um, so yeah, that is, that is my hope. It would be wonderful. Um, I guess one other thing that perhaps I wanted to speak to a little bit is I think that I hadn't anticipated going onto training with a child is actually how different I felt and how it felt a very, very lonely place to be. I think initially, and I really didn't anticipate it because I think for my life, I've always been around parents in my undergrad. I had friends with children in all of my work. Always. I've always people with parents who were parents, sorry, my masters everywhere.

Rose Dunston (: 47:17

Then you sort of training. And it's just sort of like they're in new parents here. Um, I had a very large cohort of, I think 44 and there was one other parent. Um, but just one amongst 44 and having her was invaluable, I think, um, however her children were a lot older, so there are still differences there. And I think going into that space and, uh, I just, I think I felt very alone. Um, and I think I felt very not misunderstood. Um, and like there was a huge part of my identity that maybe I Don wasn't invited and wasn't yeah. Included perhaps. And, um, and that's, you know, everyone on my they're lovely people. I love everyone of my cohort. It wasn't, it's not about individual people. It would. I think it is just about the way that the delin is positioned and framed and, um, you know, not being able to always go out for drinks when people go out because you have other responsibilities or if people are going, you know, having a picnic on the weekend being like, I don't think I can make that work. And yeah, I, I really wasn't prepared for that. Um, so, but I think I, there was something about owning your position. And I think if I were more confident in that I could have brought more of myself and I could have felt more authentic and I could have felt less lonely. Um, so it is certainly a challenge where I think it is something that can be overcome if people were sort of more confident in, in that position.

Marianne Trent (: 48:48

It's very important. And I'm imagining that picnic, you know, they might have said, oh, you, you could bring him along. But also having been on a picnic with young children, you would spend most of your time going and looking at the ducks and, you know, going, going and looking at things in the far corner of the field. Um, and that would not be relaxing and it wouldn't be, wouldn't be enriching for you. Um, cause everyone else will be having a lovely time and you'd just be off, you know, doing something different. And so it's not always that you can, you know, enmesh the two.

Rose Dunston (: 49:17

Yeah, that's true. Although I think, I dunno there, you, you'll just, you find people though, who, who enable you to do that? You'll find the friend who will walk with and look at the ducks with you or you, the friend who can come over and happily sit with you in your bathroom while you bath your child and chat or with you while you cooking dinner. Um, and I think it's about finding your people, but maybe it's also

Marianne Trent (: 49:40

Absolutely, you're so right. Actually. Yeah. My, um, my husband started a new job on our little boys, our, our only child at the time's first birthday. And, um, I was just really upset about that. Um, because he was off training for like a whole week. Um, but it was a member of my cohort who came around and did exactly that did a bath, did cake with me, um, and you know, bought him a little present. And you, you know, you absolutely confined your tribe during training as well. Even if they don't have parents, she didn't have parent didn't have children at the time. Um, so yeah, I think that's a really, really valid point. So thank you for making it rose.

Rose Dunston (: 50:15

Yeah. And maybe people who are listening, who aren't yet parents, but maybe if you, you end up on training this year, like maybe it could be something that you think about, like maybe you could seek out the parent, maybe you could invite the parent to the picnic and go and look at the ducks with them and maybe, or invite them to the pub, which is easier if you have a very small child baby, but maybe if people could hold that in mind a little bit, that would be nice.

Marianne Trent (: 50:39

Um, it really would, it really would. It feels like I could talk to you all day because there's so much about this. It feels like we need to do like a, a special extended edition for all these faxes, cuz there's so much, um, so much important stuff. Um, wanted to say a big thank you to, um, your, your co your, um, university for allowing you to come and speak so openly today. Um, because it's, it's an invaluable conversation to have.

Rose Dunston (: 51:08

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and I have really enjoyed doing it. Um, yeah. And I am very grateful to my university and I dunno that I've sort of, I did give you permission to speak today, but, and I am, I have had a really good experience with them. They have been very, very supportive and um, yeah, I guess I would really encourage people to, to think very carefully about what course they do apply to it. And if it, if at interview, if it does feel right for them. Um, and I think there's a real pressure to just like, if I get an off, I just have to accept it. Just really thinking about like, will these people will, this course support me to get through it so that I have a reasonable time and, and will they support me to be able to be the parent that I want to be as well alongside these, you know, the big demands of training.

Marianne Trent (: 51:54

Definitely, definitely. Thank you so much for your time today, rose and I'd like to wish you all the very best with completing your thesis, completing your final placement. And of course, um, finding employment once all of this is over, but also, you know, with your parenting journey and any future children that you might want to have as well. I hope that you, you know, hope that you do really well in whatever it is you want to do.

Rose Dunston (: 52:17

Thank you so much. Yeah. And thank you for yeah. Inviting me here and yeah, for opening up this conversation and I hope, you know, more conversations I had in the future.

Marianne Trent (: 52:26

Thank you so much. It was through, um, through a chat on Instagram, I think wasn't it that we, um, that we connected. Um, but thank you so much for being so generous with your time and talking with us about these really important factors. Um, I'm wish wishing you all the best. Thank you.

(: 52:41

(54:01): Um, but I do believe that, um, it is entirely possible, um, to successfully have children on other courses too. So, um, let's not massively stack out their applications next year, if you are a parent. Um, but yeah, wishing you, well, wherever you are and stay kind to yourself, take care.

(: 54:23