Baby Loss Awareness: Why It Matters & How to Support Parents | Dr Kara Davey

Dr Kara Davey (: 00:00

Baby loss is one of the most painful and silenced experiences a parent can face. If you've clicked on this video, you are in the right place. In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Cara Davey to talk about what baby loss really feels like, the grief, the silence, and the moments that shape life forever. Together we'll explore how parents can be supported and how compassion matters more than anything. I'm Dr. Marianne, a qualified clinical psychologist, and I want this space to bring understanding and hope. And later in this conversation we are going to be revealing what bereaved parents tell us they needed most but often didn't get. So stick around right to the end and if you find it useful, please like, subscribe, comment, and share. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am joined today by my guest, Dr. Cara Davy, who is a clinical psychologist. Hi Cara.

(: 00:53

Hi Marianne. Thanks for inviting me. I'm lovely. Good to see you.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 00:56

Nice to see you again. So you have been a guest of the show before. We spoke about a DHD assessment, didn't we?

Dr Kara Davey (: 01:03

That's right. We did.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 01:04

And today I just want to give a little bit of a trigger warning. Obviously we're going to be talking about baby and child loss, so if you are watching or listening to this and maybe it's not the right time or if you've got younger or sensitive ears around you, please just be mindful of that, considering whether you need to listen now, whether you'll come back to it or whether you'll pop some AirPods or earphones in so that just you here's the content act this time. Okay. This is a tricky area, Kara, and it's an area you were already working in the area of trauma before you experienced your own very sad stillbirth of your daughter, but since then you've really made it a clinical specialty. You realise that actually there's a bit of a lack of support for people that find themselves in this position. Well done for everything that you do and for creating such a compassionate, safe place for people. Can I ask what might feel like a controversial opener? Why does baby loss awareness matter?

Dr Kara Davey (: 02:10

It matters because after someone loses a baby, it's one of the most difficult experiences they might ever have. And we as society, as friends, as families, as colleagues, as someone near them can't undo that, we can't take away that. But what we can do is support them and we can help them to feel understood and validated and be with them and feel less isolated at such a difficult time in their life. And I think because it is such a sensitive topic and one that feels a bit taboo and one that we perhaps don't want other people to hear about or we're very careful how we say it means that sometimes people can experience not only the loss and all the implications of the loss, but they can feel a lot of isolation after their loss. They can feel like actually, I hear frequently people say, people cross the road to not talk to me because they feel a bit awkward because they're worried about saying the wrong things. Or employers have advised people the team not to get in contact after someone's had a loss. And then they feel like these are colleagues I've known for a really long time who aren't even checking. I'm okay at such a difficult time. So I think if we don't raise awareness of the topic and the impact and how to best support it, then actually what happens is people end up more and more isolated and that compounds their distress. So it's really, really important to empower people to be able to understand and support.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 03:37

And I think my experiences of having lost my dad is that I think some of my colleagues at the time were told and we almost told, don't worry Marianne, don't contact her about anything. But I think as a team member, it's okay to kind of say, well, how long for have they specifically asked not to be contacted ever? Not to have this mentioned or actually is there a time where actually it's okay to support that person. So maybe it's like you're trying not to rock the boat and you're trying to honour people's wishes, but the person who's had this happen, I'm sure you would say as an expert and as a mother you didn't mean forever.

Dr Kara Davey (: 04:19

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a difference between continually messaging someone or messaging someone about work-related issues when they might be on say, bereavement leave, for example. And it will depend when someone's loss is as to whether they're entitled to leave. Yeah, there's a real difference between that and sending a text saying, I've noticed you're not in work, or I've heard about your loss. I'm so sorry, there's no need to reply. I just wanted to let you know. I'm thinking of you. I don't think anyone who's been bereaved, whether that's of a child or not, would take offence to a message that says, I'm thinking of you with no pressure to respond.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 04:57

That is such a good point. And actually what the managers maybe mean is, please don't contact Cara about the spreadsheet. Please don't chase her for why she hasn't submitted X, Y, Z, her time sheet, her mileage. They don't mean don't support her, don't be a human. But maybe some of the messaging maybe could do with firming up a little bit or just be a good person if you would usually text them to say, I'm watching something on tv, are you watching it? If you've got that kind of friendship, then I think it's absolutely okay, like you say to say, I am so sorry to hear what you are going through, what you've been through, I'm here if and when you are ready.

Dr Kara Davey (: 05:37

Absolutely. And that's so, so important. It makes a huge difference. And I think you raise a really important point there about if you would normally text someone, don't change that behaviour. I hear that so often where people will say, friends are trying to be sensitive, they're meeting up without me because they don't want it to be triggering for me or whatever else. So they're excluded or general conversation that they might have about tv. They're like, oh, maybe I won't mention that programme in case there's something difficult. Or they don't want to hear about that now. Or rather than actually checking out with someone, how are you doing? I was thinking about this or we are arranging this meetup. It could be triggering, I understand that, but would you like to come because we'd love to see if it doesn't feel too much. So there's something really, really important about being held in mind for all of us at all times. And it's no different with baby loss and yet because it feels such a taboo, boon sensitive subject, actually that is something that happens a lot is that people feel isolated and left alone.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 06:39

Yeah, okay. So almost try not to police or censor your original impulse or original thought. Oh, I'm going. And so Cara would love to come, oh no, I can't invite Cara because of that. Maybe reach out to Cara anyway.

Dr Kara Davey (: 06:57

Yeah, absolutely. Unless that person has specifically said, I want to come out of this friends WhatsApp group, for example, because I'm finding it, I'm finding it triggering. Or if they choose to come out of that group, then of course honour that don't go, oh, let's add 'em back in just because they might like this conversation. But yeah, I think there's something really important about remaining human and remaining in contact and letting someone know you think of them unless they are specifically saying, I need a bit of space at this point. So as an example, I had a really close friend who a year after my loss, the kind of anniversary is typically very difficult for people after a loss and a year after she was due with another baby, same gender as a baby, I'd lost. It was quite triggering, it was quite difficult. And she kept reaching out to me and I said to her, can you just give me a week like this week where you've just given birth and is the anniversary, I just need a little bit of space because I'm finding this really difficult.

(: 07:56

And it was almost like that was quite trigger. And I think for her and she'd keep reaching out to me and I like, please just honour it as a friend. I promise I will be back in contact with you. This isn't forever, I just need a little bit of space. So I think if there's a very specific example, I think listen to that because it's hard. But other times, and I was back in contact and it was okay again afterwards. But yeah, I think if there's a real clear example where someone's telling you it's important to listen, but otherwise people do want to be held in mind. They do want to be included even if it's difficult or at least have the opportunity to say whether or not they want to be there and want to be thought of and included.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 08:38

Yeah, thank you. I think that's really helpful. And to actually know that if you are struggling as a loss, parent yourself that it's okay to advocate. It's okay to say actually what you think would be helpful for you right now, whether that's more contact, less contact or something completely different.

Dr Kara Davey (: 08:56

And I think a lot of bereaved parents find this quite difficult. I think, I don't want to make too many assumptions kind of gender assumptions, but a lot of women I support who've lost a baby will say that they are naturally quite people pleasing. They find it quite hard to speak up to advocate for themselves. And I think what can be really difficult after a loss is not only are you trying to manage the loss, but because people don't understand often people don't understand how to respond or are worried about doing the wrong thing. It means that brief parents often get better support and care if they feel able to advocate for themselves. If they're able to say, actually this is really helpful for me, or actually I find that quite triggering. Or the more someone is able to articulate how they feel and what they need often the better they are supported by others.

(: 09:44

But actually that relies on a good ability to know your emotions, to be able to communicate them and to have people around who listen to those emotions. And actually that's hard. And so many women are like, actually this isn't a time where I feel strong enough to advocate for myself. And yet without advocating, often the things that are triggering are continuing to be triggering with other people not having an opportunity to be able to change that behaviour because they don't know. Or if people are not including a baby's name in a Christmas card, for example, I often say if you are on social media and many people will come off triggering, maybe just share a post that says, I'd love to have baby's name included in the card. It lets people know what it is, but it then relies on that person and they're often like, why am I doing this when I'm grieving and I've experienced a loss, which is understandable and it's a hard time to be advocating.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 10:41

And I learned from you in that regard actually. So you are my friend and we grief together and grief is kind of nice to have a companion in I think. And I dunno how I'd have got through that time without you. So thank you as a friend and also as someone that's empathic and trained to support me, but also be my friend basically. And you told me actually about names in cards. And so yeah, people I know that have grieved, I still try to, if and when I do send birthday cards or Christmas cards, I still try to mention their name and actually people have come back to me and say, you are the only person that does that, and I actually really like that. So it's just passing on those gems of wisdom. So anyone listening or watching, maybe you could be someone that people look forward to receiving correspondence from because it makes them feel validated and seen and their suffering isn't being just completely glossed over and overlooked.

Dr Kara Davey (: 11:42

Yeah, that's really important. And firstly, just to say absolutely the importance of having someone there and the fact that we grieved together, it was obviously sad for both of us that we were experiencing loss, but you were so supportive and meant so much to me at that time. And I think that's part of my passion for supporting people is I was lucky enough to have you and a few others who really got it and really saw me and really supported me and it made such a difference to my journey and my ability to cope. It's why I'm so passionate that if other people haven't got that, actually, I dunno how I would've coped without that. And I really want other people to be able to have that experience. So yeah, I'll be forever grateful. And I think that has had a real, real influence. And then in terms of the cards, yeah, I mean it's not just ICU and I acknowledge that this might be a difficult time for you, but especially in the example when someone has lost a baby or a child, that child is not living their life anymore.

(: 12:48

And it's a way of acknowledging that you were important, you existed and you are continuing to be thought of in the world, which is really, really important because many people don't do that for fear of upsetting someone when brave parents don't forget their children anyway. But yet it's really important. And from a psychological perspective, there's something called continuing bonds. And I think often people think you get over grief and you kind of forget about someone and move on, or that was the more kind of traditional old school way of thinking of grief. And we know that's not the case now. And for people who cope and manage better, often it's because they found ways of holding that person in their life with them. And that might be for brief parents, it might be they have a teddy bear that represents their child. It might be they have things with their child's name on it might have things on the side, but seeing a child's name in a card means a lot. It's one of the things you can do that says, I remember you and you are important.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 13:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that my experiences of having been a clinician and doing, I'm probably going to say hundreds, maybe thousands of assessments is that when we're screening someone's mental health and thinking about the onset of problems, sometimes I've been in the very privileged position where I've been told about miscarriages or late miscarriages, stillborn babies, and it might be tens 20, 30, 40, 50 years later. And of course with the changing landscape of maternity services and of the way that we kind of deal with the grief and loss now and the way we talk about that in society, I think it's really important to hold onto the idea that people might have had a different experience. They might have never seen their baby, they might have not had any photos, they might have almost had things tidied up and cleaned up and taken away to save you that pain.

(: 14:49

But my experience was that that just kind of stays as this kind of gaping wound that nobody's looking at and nobody's validating. And so we heal in stages, of course we do. But if you've never had help to have that heel, then this could still be quite raw despite it being years and years later. And even with the way we talk in the media now and seeing the lighting of the candle at special memorial days and things that might really evoke things for people for the first time, it might feel safe to do that and to process all that. And so it might feel at times very, very close to the service. But people can kind of invalidate that a bit sometimes I think, can't they?

Dr Kara Davey (: 15:35

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a trustee for a baby loss, Sussex based charity, baby loss charity called Oscar's Wish Foundation. I've done lots of events with them and I did lots of fundraising after my loss and often at fundraising events you might find, especially if they're more public events, you might find someone comes along who maybe had a loss 50 years ago and they see the sign, they see the support, and often you can see how raw and difficult it is, or they will stop and take their time to say, I just wish that this understanding and this support and this way of being able to be encouraged to be with your baby as part of the grief process was around almost understood back then. And so absolutely you are right. The pain doesn't go away just because someone doesn't meet their baby or is encouraged to kind of move on or not think about it, it's very much still there and still raw. So as we've said earlier, if you are kind of worried about mentioning someone's baby, you might upset them. It's not a case of it goes away, it's still there and with them at all points and you're not going to upset them. You're going to give them an opportunity to think about and express how they feel rather than just holding that in.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 16:57

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess I was just kind of thinking about the fact that because of the long-term nature of podcasts and YouTube content is that people might be coming to this at all stages and it might be someone's very recent in their loss. Can we just go over some very basic kind of what to dos if you have lost a baby or a child and then you're sort of home, what do you do practically? How do you begin to think about arranging funerals if baby was at a stage where that needs to happen? How do you, these practical things, how do you arrange time off with work if this is all planned and not as expected? Could you guide us through that a little bit, Kara?

Dr Kara Davey (: 17:47

Yeah, I think it's worth acknowledging in a way, this is a really hard question to answer because it will depend a lot on the circumstance of the loss. So how early the loss was in terms of how entitled someone is to leave, whether or not they're having a service, whether they choose to have a funeral for their baby, whether they have a bereavement midwife and what service that bereavement midwife offers. So a lot of hospitals will have a bereavement midwife, some will arrange funerals for people and will really help with that side of things. Others, it's left for them to do or people choose to do. So the circumstances vary quite a lot. I do have on my website, there's a series of free resources for people. There's one about supporting colleagues or supporting friends or family members. There is one for people who are recently bereaved about these kind of first steps, like thinking about maybe you've just found out and you haven't even given birth yet.

(: 18:44

How on earth do you approach this next step of, it's very unusual for anybody to have a C-section to give birth to a baby when they found out that they've passed because there's no medical need for that. And so generally people have to go through the process of giving birth. So there is tips on their things that might kind of help with that. There's things that help with practicalities, how to cope with that loss. So there's lots of different things in there depending on the stage and how involved people want to be and the circumstances. Some people have lost a baby after birth, and again, the circumstances really do change. So there is a guide on there that approaches lots of those things. But if you have a more specific question, I'm happy to answer it, but I feel like there's lots of different answers for lots of different circumstances that makes that really difficult to give a straight answer.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 19:37

Thank you. And that that's a really helpful, really helpful answer. And I think I was really imagining actually the additional trauma. So I've had two caesarean sections, two babies, two emergency sections, but I was imagining the experience of having birthed naturally and maybe any kind of perineal wounds or just very uncomfortable downstairs areas and the contractions themselves can leave your belly very, very tender for days and weeks afterwards. And I sort of was really thinking about the experience of someone who's recently given birth but then has to care for their body but has no baby to care for that's living, that's with them at home. And I think it's really hard, isn't it really hard.

Dr Kara Davey (: 20:30

Yeah, absolutely. And for a lot of people, their body is triggering, lots of people feel like their body has let them down and they can feel quite triggered by the sight of their own body. It takes time obviously for swelling or to recover postnatally. People can be mistaken as they're walking around, are still pregnant when they're kind of trying to recover because people assume without a baby that they must still be pregnant. So yeah, there's a lot around. And again, in that free guide, there is information about trying to cope and care for your body. There can be brief, parents can find it hard to care for their body and can almost be inclined to want to neglect it because they feel that it's let them down or because they feel angry. Or I did do a blog with someone called MuTu, which is a MuTu system is a trying to recover postnatally about, for me it was really important to try and take care of my body and I knew it would help my emotional wellbeing to physically take care of myself and to prepare my body and to not feel kind of impacted in terms of pelvic health long-term by it.

(: 21:40

So for me, I kind of did that. But there is a blog about that and there is more information about your relationship with your body and how to take care of it. And I think even when I had my loss, I contacted the GP for the kind of six week check and they kind of checked down my notes and they went, oh, well I can see that baby didn't survive, therefore there's no need for a six week check. And I was like, well, is anyone going to, I've given birth, do I need to be checked to see how I'm physically or so I think there's even that kind of dismissal often by other people of this expectation to just get on with things. It's like you still need to heal, you still need to take care of yourself, and people don't expect you just to rest often in the same way that you would if you were a new parent with a baby here live.

(: 22:30

So I think it's really important to think about that the relationship to the body and the assumptions that maybe other people might make or things wouldn't think about that are really important as a brief parent. And that's one of the reasons I created the free guide, and I've put it in hospitals for people to look at in hospital, and it includes also things like memory making, how to make memories with your baby, how to create some of those things that a lot of people will say they leave hospital and they're like, I wish I'd done a cast with my baby. I wish I'd done fingerprints for a necklace or So some of those things around how can you make those memories or if people want photos. So I think sometimes we don't think about these things. So it's really important that people are given information around what might be helpful to know in these early stages that will help longer term recovery even if they feel hard in the short term.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 23:26

Yeah, absolutely. I am pleased that this is an area that's got more support around it now. And I think even knowing that term bereavement midwife, if for some reason you haven't been given one and it's kind of quite recent that you've lost a baby or that you've had to give birth to a baby, just knowing that term can empower you to know what to ask for. Or if people are listening to this because they are actually mental health professionals, we hear all sorts. We in our work, it just empowers us to think, oh, actually I wonder if I could share this information with this person either for their own benefit or for someone that they're telling me about. So that we are really doing that consultation model of sharing what we know to the people that need to know it.

Dr Kara Davey (: 24:17

And if you're a mental health professional working in perinatal services who don't specialise. So in some services in some areas perinatal teams also support with loss. In some areas there's a separate team and some areas, sadly it hasn't been rolled out at all yet. But if you're a perinatal team who does less of the loss work because that isn't kind of within your remit, I think it's important when you're thinking about supporting people's mental health who've had previous losses and might be pregnant again, that kind of pregnancy after loss stage to bear in mind the things that might be triggering for people, the thoughts and feelings that might be there, the practical steps that might be helpful, the places you might be able to refer them in thinking about welcoming another baby after loss and all the things that's brought up for them. But practical things like birth planning, it's all very different after a loss. And I think sometimes I speak with brave parents who feel that it can be missed by services, like the real impact of the loss when they're thinking about the next pregnancy. It's almost like it's, let's just think about this pregnancy without bearing in mind that previous context. So I do think it's important as mental health professionals for us to bear in mind that the impact of that earlier loss too,

Dr Marianne Trent (: 25:39

And I think one of my favourite books of all time is The Body Holds the Score by Bessel. And yeah, just even trying to get yourself your body into birthing positions might be incredibly, incredibly triggering or emotive. Some people find that it helps them to feel closer to baby that they've lost, but maybe you feel all the things, maybe there's some element of comfort, but also lots and lots of distress and lots of feelings about hopes for the new baby and worries about their health. It's all the things, isn't it?

Dr Kara Davey (: 26:11

Yeah, absolutely. It's a real mixture. So there is a term for pregnancy after loss of a rainbow baby, and some people like that term and some very parents really don't. And I think some people, the reason they don't like the term is because they see it as people dismissing the past. They're almost like, oh, here's the sunshine after the rain, as if you're bereaved baby is the kind of rain and the bad thing almost. And this is good, but it dismisses the experiences. But for me, when I think of rainbow, I think of the two existing together. So there has been sadness and upset as part of the loss of your baby, but your bereaved baby is not just the rain. But likewise, that next step of trying, again, if someone is in that stage, it's not that they don't feel any good emotions, not like they're not looking forward to being a parent or they're not excited about that stage, but alongside that, they are also experiencing all of the difficult emotions.

(: 27:11

So the rainbow is the kind of two existing together. And I think if we are thinking about the most important thing you can do to support someone who's bereaved as being empathic and supportive and ensuring they feel seen, acknowledging both of those emotions is so important. I run free support groups for people who've lost a baby and also for people in that next step of trying again or pregnancy again after loss. And the most common topic I would say in that group is around just people being wholeheartedly excited for them after a loss, but without any acknowledgement of actually all the other emotions that they're suddenly now feeling guilty that they're not thinking about their other baby as much or what that means about their first baby. Or they're also feeling that their body is physically from a trauma point of view back in the time before it's back pregnant, which is the state it was when they had their loss and they're now terrified or all of the other emotions that exist alongside it, that not being seen is so difficult. And so many people in the kind of pregnancy after loss groups will say, I just need people to acknowledge that congratulations, and I imagine this is a really tough time. Are you okay? Or just that simple both. And rather than assuming one replaces the other makes such a difference.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 28:33

Yeah, so I guess this is a psychology podcast. We're thinking about these things not being mutually exclusive. And by that I mean we haven't just got two train tracks that never meet. We've got, actually, I'm really excited and delighted about giving birth to this baby who is with us and alive and healthy. I'm also still really sad about this one who didn't have the same outcomes. And it's okay to check in with both of those things because of course what we know is that they converge and they can both exist. It's not either or.

Dr Kara Davey (: 29:04

Yeah, absolutely. And for a lot of people, there's a real sadness as well of the impact that their loss has had on them as a person from a trauma perspective in just how they feel, but also feel that it's robbed them of actually this pregnancy is no longer exciting in the same way. Suddenly now I'm triggered by things. Actually, the support I would've had at pregnancy yoga or whatever actually now feels quite difficult. Also, for a lot of people, there's sadness not just around, my baby's not here and will never get to live this life. I may be welcoming another baby, but there's also sadness around the interaction. I won't get to see the sibling interaction, but there's also a kind of, this experience is completely different to my last pregnancy in terms of I'm now feeling so many difficult emotions alongside joy and excitement or gratitude. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 30:07

Yeah, it's loss of that innocence I think for me is that I just didn't know how awful this could be, and I was way more fun before 2017, Cara. I think we can both agree. I dunno, I was just different.

Dr Kara Davey (: 30:24

Yeah, it means life just becomes more serious and everything feels a bit heavier and a bit more like there's just a lot of extra just to say you're still very fun, by the way. But yes, it does shift and change people and absolutely, people talk a lot about having to reconstruct who they are, and that loss of innocence is absolutely huge. I remember, I feel I coped fairly well in my pregnancy after loss despite it being difficult. But I will never quite forget the shock of walking into a pregnancy yoga class that I'd done in my previous birth and my baby I'd lost. And with the previous baby I was lucky to have here kind of safe, and I walked in and the innocence of people in the check-in at the beginning of like, oh, I can't wait to be pushing my baby in a pram.

(: 31:16

And all of the kind of naivety of never even a thought that anything could go wrong would go wrong, or just the pure excitement and joy and a state that I just couldn't quite connect with anymore. But remembering that I had. And it just really triggered me and I think it was one of the most triggering points of my pregnancy. And I left the room and was like, well, I was not expecting that. It hit me a tonne of bricks and it was that innocence that I was just like, oh, I do remember having that innocence. It was a clear kind of view of how I had been versus how I was now and what a brick wall there was between them and how I can never almost go back to that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 32:00

Yeah, I think there's a really powerful song by Kat Stevens that was covered by Boyz Zone as well actually, and it's father and son, and the lyrics are something like, you are still young, it's not your fault. And whilst this isn't about age, we're not talking about the age of an expectant mother. It's almost like you just don't know what it is that you don't know, and that's not your fault. But I just will need to just hold in mind the fact that I know that it's not all sunshine and rainbows and not everyone has this experience, but yeah, it's not invalidating yourself for having those ragey thoughts and feelings like stuff that they don't know and you've been through experiences that maybe they haven't been through.

Dr Kara Davey (: 32:46

And I mean some people do feel rage about it and there is a normality in that. So there's absolutely no judgement . I don't think I felt rage. I just felt a utter sadness of just the kind of, this is the impact and this is how I can never quite go back. I really like the analogy of tsu, of the Japanese art, of putting something back together. So if you imagine a kind of vase on the side, it gets knocked over, it's smashed. You are never going to be able to put those pieces back together and it looks like a vase that has never been smashed. And yet you can put the pieces together and spend time putting gold between it, putting glitter on it, making it look good, but in a different way. And I think that's the process lots of brave parents will talk about after their loss is they have to put themselves and their personality and their experiences back together.

(: 33:43

And there's often a period of resistance of I want to be the person I was like, I'm upset that I might now be triggered by these things, or I might feel angry or upset. And lots of people are trying to be who they were. And I think often we have to get to a point or it's really helpful if we can get to a point of, actually, maybe I'm not the same as I was, but there's ways in which I'm probably actually more empathic, more supportive and kind. There's positive things that have come from being able to cope with this loss rather than the loss itself. And then there's other ways in which those cracks might always be there, and it's really important to be able to shift to that perspective, but to acknowledge that the cracks still exist because that's where people feeling validated if we don't acknowledge that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 34:32

And I think that even crops up in between relationships, doesn't it? So not all people are expecting a baby with a partner, but often that is the norm, still that people are, and even our different views within a relationship can be further wounds in this kind of broken pot. And sometimes people are able to work through those. Sometimes it feels hard to work through that trauma and that becomes a relationship. Trauma and ultimately decisions long-term futures. This is a big deal. It affects all aspects of life, doesn't it, Cara?

Dr Kara Davey (: 35:11

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's something when we're talking about raising awareness of baby loss, I think that's the thing here is that we're not just talking about, and it's big in itself, losing the baby, losing all the hopes and dreams and the future, but it is a fundamental shift in every aspect of people's lives. People move jobs, they move houses. Some people really have to move, whether that's for different because they're triggered in their home. It is every aspect of life, their personality, as you say, relationships for lots of people, these are real relational traumas. When you're experiencing something so difficult, often you look to the people close to you to support you and to help you. And in the experience of having lost a baby, both partners are grieving and can they be there and support each other in that grief or do they actually need very different things?

(: 36:05

We often see one partner might really want to talk about it all the time and need to try and really process how they're feeling all of the time. And that might feel really difficult for the other partner and they need to avoid and not talk about it and not think about it. And then you can get the relational trauma of, I told them I couldn't talk about it, and they keep talking about it or vice versa. I told them I really need to talk and they weren't there for me. And further down the line, when people have survived and coped in whatever way, they need to look back at the relationship and go, but I really needed you and you weren't there. So for some people it is a real turning point in their relationship, and it really does impact every area of life in a way that I think sometimes we can miss as professionals if we haven't had the experiences ourselves or know someone who have or had the relevant training.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 36:57

Absolutely. And that's why this podcast is just gold, isn't it? I think we can't know what we don't know, but we can do our best to be curious and to learn. Kara, we did mention Rainbows, we did mention Rainbow Babies. Could you tell us about your book that's got Rainbow Baby in the title please?

Dr Kara Davey (: 37:13

Yeah. So I wrote a book called There's a Rainbow Baby in my Mommy's Tummy. And I guess that was my experiences. As I mentioned, I'm fortunate to have had a child before my loss who's here safely, and he was three at the time of a loss. And when I fell pregnant again after my loss, I spent lots of time talking to him about, I had to pick the right time to tell him, I guess it's a whole another topic, but essentially the book is my experiences of what I found helpful in preparing him for another baby coming. Because often when children have experienced loss, they can be quite black and white of like, why would you try again when the last baby died? Or they can make quite difficult comments. And I think many brave parents, if they have another child here, worry about how to talk to them, how to support them, when to tell them when they're pregnant again, what to tell them about it, how to speak to them about it.

(: 38:15

And when bereaved parents are pregnant again and they're feeling so nervous about, will my baby arrive here safely this time? It can feel really hard to reassure a child of what's been done differently this time and how there's lots of things in place to try and minimise that. And parents are like, well, do I guarantee it because I've got no guarantees or do I tell them how nervous I am or, so the book is all about helping brief parents to be able to support children in pregnancy after loss. And also there's a kind of q and a at the back of just how do we have some of these difficult conversations and what to share and what not to share to support children in that journey.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 38:55

But it's actually a book to read to your child, isn't it? But there's useful stuff at the back for the parent themselves as well.

Dr Kara Davey (: 39:02

Yeah. So yeah, you're right. It's a children's book. It's illustrated for children. It talks them through the journey. What we know for children is that often they will find it easier if it is somebody else's experiences that are similar than about themselves. So if you were doing MDR therapy with a child, you would talk about, you'd write a story for them of the event that happened about another little boy or girl that it happened to or, so this is a chance for them to read about somebody else in a similar situation that might validate how they might feel, but it also might help them to understand and then it helps the parents to answer any questions that might come up as a result of that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 39:42

Yeah, absolutely. Just before we finish, could you tell us about your free baby loss support groups, which just you've done them for so many years and I just want to say well done and thank you because I know they're an incredibly valuable resource, but tell us about them, Cara.

Dr Kara Davey (: 39:58

Thank you. Yeah, so the support group started in COVID five years ago now, and that's because the baby loss charity that I'm a trustee for, they offer counselling support and they were all furloughed during the pandemic. So I started running support groups for them just to support bereave parents or people who were pregnant again, because it was such a difficult time and it was so hard to kind of get support. And then one-to-one clients that had at the time were like, oh, can I join? It would be really helpful to connect. So now they're open to anybody regardless of where you are. They are monthly groups. They run on Zoom so that you can attend wherever. And they are an hour each month, the first Sunday of each month. And it's a space to be with other people who understand who gets it. And yeah, it's a safe space for people who don't have that safe space or for people who would benefit from more support.

(: 40:59

So yeah, they run every month. There are a number of different free resources available on my website if you go onto there, but if you scroll down on the page, you can see and you can join, just type in your email address and you'll get monthly reminders just with the Zoom links so that you can kind of attend the groups and obviously you can unsubscribe at any point should you not want to. But yeah, it's just a way of connecting people and it's really nice. Some of the clients I've spoken to years down the line say, I still in contact with so-and-so who I met on the group, or it's nice that people become a support outside of the group as well.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 41:37

Amazing. And whilst do you often specialise in in-person stuff in Sussex, these groups are open to anybody, aren't they?

Dr Kara Davey (: 41:45

Yeah, absolutely. They are open to anyone. And within the practise we also offer, so I support people personally. I have many other psychologists in the practise who also support people who specialise in this type of support. And again, we do do remote support as well. It's for anyone who wants to be supported by someone who really gets it and understands the area, and I don't want geography to be a limiting factor on that.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:13

Amazing. Well done you and if people want to follow you on Instagram or somewhere like that, what's the best handle for them to look for?

Dr Kara Davey (: 42:19

So the handle is always in my heart. Perfect.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:22

Thank you so much for your time, Cara, and I will see you soon. Take care.

Dr Kara Davey (: 42:27

Thank you.

Dr Marianne Trent (: 42:28

Thank you so much to my guest and to my friend Dr. Cara Davey. It's always an absolute pleasure to speak with her, and I hope you found this content to be helpful. You might well be watching because you yourself are experiencing a loss or have experienced a loss, or you might be your friend, family member, or even working with someone in a mental health capacity or physical health capacity who is experiencing this or has experienced this. I would love to know whether you have found this content helpful. Please do drop a comment alike that can be done on Spotify or on YouTube. And if you'd like to learn more about Cara, her story and what happened to her and her little girl, you can do in my book, the Grief Collective Stories of Life Loss and Learning to Heal. She is from page 190 and there's lots of real life reflections of people who have grieved for a variety of reason. I hope that you are being supported, you're being validated, and you are supporting and validating yourself too. Such important things to do. Please do look after yourself. If you're looking to become a

Jingle Guy (: 43:44

Psychologist, then let this be this podcast psychologist.